August 13, 2009

LA Fitness Shooter George Sodini Did Not Kill Because He Was A Misogynist


solimorphic.PNG
all of this has happened before and it will happen again


click here for analysis of his blog





Comments

You missed some of the symb... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 2:03 PM | Posted by AdeptArgonaut: | Reply

You missed some of the symbolism of his joining the gym. You were on the path, but steered away a little. He stayed away from cardio...why? Cardio exercises the heart. Instead he focused on strength exercises, those that were muscle oriented. If only he was strong enough, better, then he could have everything he wanted. Then he could show his (boss) mother and brother who was really in control. His heart didn't matter.

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Thank you for creating and ... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 2:10 PM | Posted by Jessica: | Reply

Thank you for creating and posting this analyis. A dynamically informed perspective is so important! I hope you continue to do this kind of work.

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This and the one where you ... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 2:20 PM | Posted by pinkpillsanity: | Reply

This and the one where you analyzed an article from that Atlantic writer are really interesting. Makes me wonder about the subtext of a lot of different posts I read.

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Really interesting insights... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 2:24 PM | Posted by Mae: | Reply

Really interesting insights. Thanks for posting the explanations.

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Also it's difficult to main... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 2:40 PM | Posted by nohope: | Reply

Also it's difficult to maintain rage with running. Running gives a strong high and a wholesome form of exhaustion. It would go against his need to keep his rage intact.

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It's high time someone who ... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 3:00 PM | Posted by raincoaster: | Reply

It's high time someone who knew what they were doing chimed in. Very interesting analysis, thanks for that.

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I find these so wonderful! ... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 4:02 PM | Posted by Paula: | Reply

I find these so wonderful! I work with personality disorders and the lack of insight is astonishing. This is why it is on axis II- they are emotionally retarded. The chronic drama is hard to relate to and function around. I enjoy this site.

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I don't think he needed to ... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 4:19 PM | Posted by Salvador: | Reply

I don't think he needed to worry about being laid off.

As he wasn't able to ask for and get what he wanted from women, he probably couldn't do that at work, either. He was probably underpaid. He will grumble about not getting a bonus, but he's not going to do anything about it. It just adds to the pile of resentment.

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The quotes in the commentar... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 4:26 PM | Posted by Salvador: | Reply

The quotes in the commentary are from Notes from the Underground by Dostoevsky.

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Is this the full blog? I r... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 4:35 PM | Posted by Sammy: | Reply

Is this the full blog? I remember when I read it there was something about his brother's wife in it, and George wrote something about how she was intelligent and had great cooking skills, but that those things didn't matter because she wasn't attractive. I thought that was a big signal that it wasn't about women.

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OK yeah I see it on there n... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 4:37 PM | Posted by Sammy: | Reply

OK yeah I see it on there now. He says, "who cares about that kind of small bull crap"?

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Of course misogyny is a red... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 4:47 PM | Posted by Joshua: | Reply

Of course misogyny is a red herring. If it was just about not getting laid, he could go visit a prostitute (and a fancy one too, what with that $250,000 net worth!). Hell, he sees himself getting into heaven after shooting up a gym, I'm sure Jesus won't mind a little money for sex. But Sodini would be well aware that a prostitute isn't really buying into his identity when he has to pay her, so that nixes that. And besides, "nice guys" don't pay for sex.

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You can say it's not misogy... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 6:17 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

You can say it's not misogyny all you want, but this man had a target. And it was women. And he carried through on it-three women died.

The choice of women is not coincidental. It speaks to who he feels is the best target/victim. All the wanting a woman in order to be able to say he's "a success," he's potent enough to "get some," speaks to a male cultural code which relegates women to the role of a desirable accessory, a trophy.

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You know that line for Pi t... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 7:00 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

You know that line for Pi the movie: "if you look in enough places, you'll find patterns."

This is true as well when trying to find the subtext in writings such as this.

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You do realize that if you ... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 7:36 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

You do realize that if you clicked on that link, you'd have seen a PNG image with a long analysis of the dude's blog, right?

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You're missing the real iss... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 7:41 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

You're missing the real issue in these types of killings.

He was a systems analyst. The dude in austria who kidnapped and repeatedly raped his daughter was an engineer. The virginia tech killer didn't talk. They're all autistic spectrum. Narcissism is a symptom. The real problem is empathy deficits created by autistic spectrum disorders which manifests as a sort of narcissism. No they may not be diagnosed, but diagnosis is meaningless anyway, diagnosis is a vehicle to sell drugs, and people only seek diagnoses when they are forced (as children or by government) or when they naively think the drugs will help. This type of brain is the reason they feel no empathy, no remorse, and why they demonstrate thinking styles which you are labeling with the meaningless word "narcissism" (self centered and detatched, aggressive and violent).

It's less of a social/cultural problem and more of a brain problem, probably related to some combination of autoimmunity, industrial toxins and male hormones prenatal brain development.

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So you are saying anyone in... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 9:47 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Sfon: | Reply

So you are saying anyone intelligent is "self centered and detatched, aggressive and violent" and they "feel no empathy, no remorse"?

You speak of autistic spectrum people and even just plain anyone decent with machines of some kind in general like they are soulless devils. That is pretty extreme, got anything to back it up? I want to see the research that says autistic people, even with mild forms of autism, are unusually aggressive and violent. Research stating that engineers and the like are more likely to commit violent crime wouldn't hurt either.

I mean, if you are going to incite hatred and paranoia toward some people, possibly leading to oppression/violence against them, then you'd better have some darn solid evidence.

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You're missing the real ... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 10:14 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by AdeptArgonaut: | Reply

You're missing the real issue in these types of killings.

He was a systems analyst. The dude in austria who kidnapped and repeatedly raped his daughter was an engineer. The virginia tech killer didn't talk. They're all autistic spectrum. Narcissism is a symptom. The real problem is empathy deficits created by autistic spectrum disorders which manifests as a sort of narcissism. No they may not be diagnosed, but diagnosis is meaningless anyway, diagnosis is a vehicle to sell drugs, and people only seek diagnoses when they are forced (as children or by government) or when they naively think the drugs will help. This type of brain is the reason they feel no empathy, no remorse, and why they demonstrate thinking styles which you are labeling with the meaningless word "narcissism" (self centered and detatched, aggressive and violent).

It's less of a social/cultural problem and more of a brain problem, probably related to some combination of autoimmunity, industrial toxins and male hormones prenatal brain development.

LMAO at autistic spectrum, would love to see the data on that. But I suppose since you think diagnoses are meaningless that we can disregard yours.

Seriously though, it's the isolation coupled with the narcissism. A creature such as this removed itself, and unfortunately others, from our midst. It's interesting that the attacks were generalized though, isn't it? He didn't hate any one specific person(s) at the gym. It was just where he decided to let out his narcissistic rage (I've seen this in person, it is an ugly thing).

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Apparently I suck at HTML, ... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 10:15 PM | Posted, in reply to AdeptArgonaut's comment, by AdeptArgonaut: | Reply

Apparently I suck at HTML, my reply begins at LMAO

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>1) Autism does no... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 10:31 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

>

1) Autism does not equal intelligence any more than being an extrovert equals being charming.
2) If people who are exposed to HIV are the only people who can get AIDS, does that mean all people with HIV will develop AIDS or even die from it? If people with a certain HLA type are the only ones who get type 1 diabetes, does that mean all people with this gene will develop IDDM? If most "serial killers" are white males, does that mean white males are all serial killers?


>

Relax buddie. I am also a computer nerd with mechanical aptitude. In school they called me robot. I am so socially withdrawn I've recently been accused of schizophrenia. I'm not trying to incite hate. I'm just stating the obvious: this dude's personality traits are likely hard-wired or at least significantly biologically determined and they are most likely related to autism. No, it doesn't sound or seem like he is a true autistic, but the whole "systems analyst" thing, the social awkwardness and the detatched and self-centric way of looking at the world are red flags.

Ironically TLP noticed in the writing the tendency to repeat phrases, preservation of thought patterns, and he didn't seem to think this may suggest autistic traits. Eh, what can I say.

And, BTW, it is well known autistic children tend toward emotional outbursts, aggression, violence. Personally I think this is for unrelated reasons (emotional hypersensitivity and an inability to control or express emotions)... but it's still pretty ironic that you should request evidence of a common symptom of autism. A lot of "pediatric ultradian bipolar" BS diagnoses are actually autistic kids going through rapid extreme autism-related moods. I knew one girl who was simultaneously diagnosed with autism, ultrarapid bipolar, AND borderline personality. Haha psychiatry is such a joke isn't it?

The "autism spectrum" itself is BS, but it is a useful label to describe a personality type/tendency (fixated, repetative/rigid, isolated, "awkward", intense hobbies/subjects of interest, a tendency to collect organize and/or perfect, leading to professional occupations and personal interests in maths and sciences.)


I would also be very interested to know why it is okay to label this individual a narcissist (when narcissists aren't particularly violent, otherwise they would be socio/psychopaths)... but if I submit he is probably "autistic" it is a big deal. Is it because narcissists are evil and it's a choice to behave and think in a narcissistic way (both of those assumptions are false BTW)?

But, yea, anyway, whatever.

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Having a number-crunching j... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 11:17 PM | Posted by acute_mania: | Reply

Having a number-crunching job doesn't make you autistic. Besides I don't think he lacked the facilities for empathy. His narcissism had no use for them. He didn't want to connect so much he wanted to be worshipped/praised/sell his story.

Which brings me to this tangent. This is for Alone. I suspect like bipolar, which you've brought up many times, that many of these "austistic spectrum" diagnoses are made when something like a personality disorder would be more appropriate (Although most are made in kids? ). Are autistic spectrum diagnoses, Asperger's, HFA, PDD_NOS etc. counted as autism in statistics? If so, are they largely, or even entirely to blame for skyrocketing autism rates?

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I want to thank you for pos... (Below threshold)

August 13, 2009 11:55 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I want to thank you for posting this, even though I find it really troubling.

I'm currently in therapy, which was prompted by romantic breakups that happened years ago. I find in myself the same obsessive thinking, repetitive phrasing, sense of futility and consuming envy that you highlight here. (My saving grace vis-a-vis Sodini and people like him is that I'm much more likely to turn that rage inward and kill myself rather than hurt anyone else.)

I'm very worried that I might be a narcissistic sociopath in the making, so I've isolated myself not only to avoid humiliation at other people's hands (narcissistic injury, as you show), but also to protect them from what I might do - and by that I mean unconscious manipulation on my part, not physical violence against someone.

It's possible that the act of posting this comment could also be considered evidence of narcissism, I'm not sure. But I just wanted to say thanks for making me consider more thoroughly how I relate to people - do I value them for themselves? Or just the sense of validation and belonging they bring to me?

Thanks for your writing, sometimes I feel it's a little spiteful, but I think we could all benefit from realizing that other people are not a solution or cause of one's problems but are individuals themselves. People like me need those reminders.

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Notice that the focal point... (Below threshold)

August 14, 2009 12:19 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by acute_mania: | Reply

Notice that the focal point of all of his relationships/encounters with anybody is the power differential aspect, more specifically his being on the wrong side of it. Along with being passive aggresive, doing favors/being "nice", and regretting it later.

It's as if he has the mentality of a five-year-old, he does what the condescending grownups tell him to do so he gets praised rather than punished, not beaten up rather than beaten up, thanked rather than maced, all the while resenting the fact that everyone around him, Mom, Dad, Brother, Random Hot Girl, has more power than he has. Growing up, to him, means shifting the balance of power in his favor.
In his mind, he's the still the powerless kid, the girls at the gym, twenty years his junior are the "grownups".

At age 5 the solution to this problem is growing up.

At 48 if you're in the same predicament, you shoot yourself.

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You know, I must admit that... (Below threshold)

August 14, 2009 1:50 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

You know, I must admit that I do relate a lot to this guy. Not his situation... but what I relate to is his obvious depression that he is so unaware of.

I am lucky that my depression is such that I am capable of feeling better, even quite good, for awhile. From his own writing, he feels deadened every day.

I don't know if antidepressants would have helped. They might have, but he is so fixed and rigid, I don't think he had any interest in learning new thinking patterns... and to recover from any problem, including depression, you really have to be open minded about learning new things, trying new things, changing.

The scapegoating of women and lack of relationships as a reason for his depression is evidence that he doesn't want to change. His racism is evidence he doesn't want to change. He feels terrible, he's depressed, but he doesn't want to change. Unfortunately he chose suicide and murder.

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At age 5 the solut... (Below threshold)

August 14, 2009 2:18 AM | Posted, in reply to acute_mania's comment, by Dave Johnson: | Reply

At age 5 the solution to this problem is growing up. At 48 if you're in the same predicament, you shoot yourself.

I suppose that may apply to a "universal" 48 year old with these "predicaments." But if you're referring to George Sodini, he didn't just "shoot himself." He shot and killed 3 women. He shot and injured 9 others. Then he shot himself.

Interesting chronology you put on it. If he'd done just as you wrote ... no one else would have died. No one else would have been injured. He would have just shot himself.

It's the details.

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This has happened before, a... (Below threshold)

August 14, 2009 3:01 AM | Posted by Meat Robot: | Reply

This has happened before, and it will happen again, but with clear-eyed and dispassionate analysis, perhaps the beginning of finding a way out is underway.

I suppose in DSM terms, this man would be Major Depressive Disorder, Chronic, in the context of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and perhaps some Avoidant Personality Traits.

From a developmental psychopathology point of view, I'd eat my hat if he didn't meet criteria for dismissive/avoidant attachment style.

The deeper picture is a man so unable to come to terms with the empathic failures he suffered in childhood that he was almost totally unable to see that within him lay the ability to not just recognize his lostness (which he seems to have done, though on a muted level) but also the ability to reach out for a life preserver. But, no one's more lost than one who doesn't even realize their lostness. On top of that, it would have been almost psychologically impossible to admit to any need, particularly one so close to a pathological core.

A commenter above said that narcissists aren't violent. I submit the world daily furnishes us with new examples of malignant narcissism fully capable of violence in the service of the narcissists own "grand vision" of a better world. Names like Slobodan Milosevic, Colonel Qadaffi, or Joe Stalin come to mind.

I wish I could have been there for this man when he was an infant, been a secure attachment figure, and opened to him the joys and sorrows of a regular life in love and relation to others.

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I got a question. If it's ... (Below threshold)

August 14, 2009 8:39 AM | Posted by CC: | Reply

I got a question. If it's not about the women, how come he shot women? If Columbine wasn't about the school, how come they shot up the school? If going postal isn't about the job, how come they shoot up their workplaces? I mean, ok, sure, it's not about those things; they're bigger problem is sin --hey, a big shout-out to all my anti-religious hommies!-- but still, it's at least a little about the women. That's his particular expression of the sin, right? And if that's his particular expression, then why don't we deal with it? He didn't deal with it the right way. Was there a better way? Why do we have to say, no, women aren't your problem, sin/narcissism is your problem? Why not say, yeah, you know you're on to something there; your complaint has some validity; sucks to be us these days; whatcha gonna do?

I have more to say. I'm thinking of Sonny Corleone's line in The Godfather, something like "Dad had Luca Brazzi [to go to war with] and all I got is you, Tom," and Tom Hagen replies something like, calm down, we have to have a plan, we can't just go flying off. Isn't it true that Sodoni's dad had something else when it came to women? Isn't it true that Dylan and Kleobold's parents had something different when it came to school? Isn't it true that the workplace in America was different in significant ways 50 years ago?

Even the great book starts with that point --unless in a Cervante-ish type of way it's part of the story too:

* The author of the diary and the diary itself are, of course, imaginary. Nevertheless it is clear that such persons as the writer of these notes not only may, but positively must, exist in our society, when we consider the circumstances in the midst of which our society is formed. I have tried to expose to the view of the public more distinctly than is commonly done, one of the characters of the recent past. He is one of the representatives of a generation still living. In this fragment, entitled "Underground," this person introduces himself and his views, and, as it were, tries to explain the causes owing to which he has made his appearance and was bound to make his appearance in our midst. In the second fragment there are added the actual notes of this person concerning certain events in his life. -- AUTHOR's NOTE.

Looking forward to checking back, figuring something else out around lunch. That analysis blew me away; close to home like a couple of other commenters said....

But, before, I read another guy say he had no sympathy for this type, that they were stupid, inflexible, cowardly. I agree with that too.

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It's remarkable how little ... (Below threshold)

August 14, 2009 10:34 AM | Posted by Joseph Bergevin: | Reply

It's remarkable how little insight seemingly intelligent people can have about themselves. Having read this blog for a while, I've come to appreciate narcissism more fully, but I'm always left wondering what the internal state is for people who, as you've said, seem to know that what they're saying is a lie but are seemingly comfortable with that. Are their emotions simply not aroused by this contradiction? Is it better to be a dumb narcissist?

It also begs the question of what would actually make a narcissist happy? Given the constraints they have, it would appear impossible. It makes me think of something like a preserve or care facility for narcissists - they're fawned over and given a little stage. Workers set themselves up for easy degredation, and act jealous. Each client is lead to believe they're the only one in the facility.

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Two quotes from his blog:</... (Below threshold)

August 14, 2009 2:15 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Two quotes from his blog:

1. I guess some of us were simply meant to walk a lonely path.
2. Some were simply meant to walk a lonely path in life.

Intellectually he seems to understand a simple truth in life. But emotionally he couldn't accept it and so this giant fountain of a blog before the final act.

How many people live analogous lives but learn the acceptance because the alternative is ... what? Annihilation?

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men compete with one anothe... (Below threshold)

August 14, 2009 4:20 PM | Posted by Larry Stites: | Reply

men compete with one another for material and influential status. women compete with one another for physical beauty status. male social networks are usually based on competition and dominance hierarchy. a man is strongly encouraged even compelled to participate in the dominance hierarchy to achieve alpha status. but a large part of the alpha status for men is defined by the women. the alpha male gets the beautiful women. a man with a beautiful woman is perceived as alpha - even if he doesn't have material wealth - either way women define a man's status, the more beautiful the woman, the higher the man's status.

if a man has material and influential indications of alpha status but does not have the woman... then he's alone or with other males who are of same or similar rank, but that is not alpha. Sodini was probably alpha as measured by material success and accomplishment, but without the beautiful women it didn't matter. he saw this with holding as women's defining him as a beta male. women refused to be with him thereby denying his alpha status. Sodini then grew to resent the feminine as he perceived them cheating him out of his full status. to make matters more convoluted for Sodini (and many other men) the world changed so that he had to compete against women as well as men... women now compete directly with men for status while simultaneously defining which male is alpha... how can a man compete against that which he desires? how can a man experience equality when he cannot compete with female beauty? who is left to affirm his status? and if there is no affirmation available then why would he compete or participate at all...?

I have experienced both alpha and beta status and have had to work to resolve the issues inherent with each. I currently find the solution being to define my own status and happiness. I can see how a man like Sodini might think as he did but to actually follow through and ruin innocent people's lives is obviously sick. sadly I predict more will follow until we redefine what rewards men can expect if they continue to participate in this technological society.

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There's a question I keep w... (Below threshold)

August 14, 2009 7:18 PM | Posted by SusanC: | Reply

There's a question I keep wanting to ask in this blog, and this thread is as good an opening as any. What do you think the difference is between autism and narcicism?

My take on it:

Case (a): altruism and remorse over accidentally (e.g.) hurting someone else's feelings in a minor way are quite compatible with severe cognitive difficulty in interpreting facial expressions, recognizing faces, understanding metaphorical use of language, eye gaze, voice prosody, and predicting how others will react to your actions.

Case (b): The George Sodoni post.

They're on different axes, aren't they?

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This is absolutely right. ... (Below threshold)

August 14, 2009 7:54 PM | Posted by BHL: | Reply

This is absolutely right. He didn't kill because he was a misogynist - but when his other issues led him to decide that killing people was what he wanted to do, misogyny guided his choice of targets.

If he'd decided his boss was the reason why his life wasn't going right, he would have shot up his workplace.

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Perhaps misogyny is just an... (Below threshold)

August 14, 2009 8:09 PM | Posted by information addict: | Reply

Perhaps misogyny is just an expression of narcissism.

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I've found both the post an... (Below threshold)

August 15, 2009 4:49 AM | Posted by Snipergirl: | Reply

I've found both the post and the comments very interesting.

The repetitive sentences and social withdrawal are pretty typical of cognitive blunting associated with depression. He probably also fits the criteria for major depression - his mood is low, he has anhedonia, cognitive dysfunction, loss of (real) interest in pleasurable activities, guilt... The discomfort and pain that this man - who did have a comfortable enough life otherwise - were suffering are strongly projected, they scream at you through the blog. Reading it you yourself feel deeply affected by his aloneness.

I agree that it appears to have been quite avoidant. He does not seem to have either the skills or the desire - or possibly he is quite inhibited - to actually gain sex or whatever it is he thinks he is after. In fact he seems to have misplaced his rage and pain into an obvious target- lack of sexual prowess- when as TLP has quite rightly stated, it is more about isolation and powerlessness.

I also wonder if his "narcissistic"/"borderline" traits are actually accentuated by his depression, and in fact he is naturally more withdrawn even though he seems outwardly sociable. I agree that he probably has a strong element of cluster B & C traits.

"Ordinarily" depressed people do not go on a shooting spree. I don't think that the blog necessarily tells us much about the "why" - just that he wished for some sort of (borderline-esque) release of massive anxiety/stress in the form of murder-suicide.

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Additionally -I'm ... (Below threshold)

August 15, 2009 6:18 AM | Posted by Snipergirl: | Reply

Additionally -

I'm surprised that no-one has brought up the "autism spectrum" vs "personality disorder" stuff before.

Have a read of this: http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/163/7/1239

This particular article shows adult patients with ADHD or ASD to have higher susceptibility to certain PD traits - broadly: ADHD with impulsive behaviour and emotional instability c/w cluster B traits and ASD with lower self-direction, initiation, flexibility and social reclusion c/w cluster A or C.

There was also significant overlap between all categories of PD in these groups suggesting that a different model might be necessary in people with these neurodevelopmental disorders.

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Some people I was... (Below threshold)

August 15, 2009 9:09 AM | Posted by SusanC: | Reply

Some people I was talking with believed I date a lot and get around with women. They think this is because I showed an email from a hot woman to the department gossip..

- He distinguishes other's people's mental states from his own
- He realises that he knows information that they don't
- He does things in order to change other people's mental states (e.g. showing them the email)
- As far as we know, he does this successfully
- He cares about other people's view of himself.


-> Not autistic traits.

But: he doesn't care about the woman he got the email from (only purpose is to be able to boast about it). He doesn't care that he is deceiving people.

-> Narcicism

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"Reality overwhelms the met... (Below threshold)

August 15, 2009 12:16 PM | Posted by jj: | Reply

"Reality overwhelms the method actor"
This is actually a pretty profound thing and I'm surprised none of the other commenters mention it.
Fucking great quote dude.
Reminds me of when you're at a shit party but you're trying to have fun anyway and make the best of it.
Then somebody says something retarded and your facade slips.

You groan.

"Oh fuck".

Why did he have to say that?

"Forget it, man."

What's the solution? If the party looks shit, get drunk enough that you don't care.

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I like these posts because ... (Below threshold)

August 16, 2009 4:26 AM | Posted by B. Valentine: | Reply

I like these posts because they challenge my default point of view, which is entirely first-person and pretty self-absorbed. I lie to myself less, now: my life is good, I personally have flaws, living is not some titanic, major motion picture-type struggle, everyone is just as confused and oblivious as I am.

I try to own my actions and don't idealize/romanticize/dramaticize myself. There are things I'd like to be, but I wasn't born great and I don't expect to have greatness thrust upon me. Please never stop writing about narcissism.

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this time, I think you forc... (Below threshold)

August 16, 2009 4:53 PM | Posted by Trei: | Reply

this time, I think you forced this. the guy did something 'bad' and you tried hard to 'see it' in his 'thoughts'. tried too hard. it's just not there.

and it's sad to see these many ppl readily embrace your 'analysis', blind to the fact that this is just being mean. and calling names. and pushing narcissism down his throat just to make a point - your point.

there's obviously something wrong with that man, but not there. and he's actually not narcissistic. he's angry, full of resentment, scared (by being unable to understand why things 'happen' to him thus powerless to save himself) - but he's had a misrable life, a horrible family, and he's coping quite well - mentally.

I'm surprised you missed all the good clues, and got so ...obssessed with seeing *your* theory everywhere. if there's a narcissist in this story, that guys isn't it...

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Trei wins.Only exc... (Below threshold)

August 16, 2009 5:16 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Trei wins.

Only exception is that it is quite possible his perception of his mother and brother were tainted by his mental problems (his general aggressive, hypersensitive, withdrawn, slightly paranoid and self-centered disposition leading to jealousy, irrational feelings of oppression and the scapegoating of blacks and women).

I know this is possible, because my father is slightly similar to this man... my father is very paranoid, angry, attributes evil motives to people which are blatantly irrational, and is very misogynystic and racist (this was worse when he was younger, which BTW was also when he was crazier/more paranoid). Yes my father had a bad life, and his perceptions could be nothing more than the result of mistreatment and neglect by his family and society.
But then again, both of his parents had psychotic illnesses so it is also quite possible my father's irrational and paranoid way of looking at the world is a low grade version of the genetic tendency in his family (which is then only compounded by the mistreatment of his early life). I tend to think this is more of the case. There are times when my fathers thoughts and behavior are clearly more than a psychological reaction to his childhood... I mean, I wouldn't think being the child of a neglectful family can make you see things and believe completely irrational things without a preexisting vulnerability to disturbed thoughts.

So, knowing my family, I'm almost certain that his mother and brother really weren't THAT bad, or at least not much worse than the average american self absorbed mother and older competative brother... OR alternately they were mentally ill as well, and their behaviors (which would have adversely affected any child) had an even greater adverse effect on Sodini because of his genetic predisposition to mental illness/disturbed thinking (extreme and irrational persecutory perceptions and thoughts).

Either way it just isn't normal for a 48 year old man to harbor such resentment and extreme negative thoughts for his mother and brother... unless they were really viciously abusive, and this doesn't seem the case. This seems to suggests Sodini had mental problems/atypical thinking his entire life.
I think of the many bad things my mother and father and siblings did to me, and I don't have even a fraction of the hatred and one sided malicious bitter resentment that Sodini does. And, I'm pretty sure my upbringing was worse. I dealt with everything he did, and more (unless he didn't disclose the whole story, but I don't see why he would hold back when he was disclosing everything else).

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This analysis doesn't quite... (Below threshold)

August 16, 2009 8:11 PM | Posted by R. Kevin Hill: | Reply

This analysis doesn't quite ring true, but I can't put my finger on why. Perhaps it's because I don't "get" the author of the notes right off the bat. But this leads me to a larger question. Though I am not a psychiatrist, I have had some first-hand dealings with someone I thought would've been diagnosed with NPD--he manifested all the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria and was... *weird*! (I recall when I read the criteria, something went "click" as if this was a description of the guy). Now in my reading of *this* blog, I am intrigued by the perceptive discussions of what TLP calls "narcissism" in various figures and contexts, but none of the phenomena discussed reminds me either of the DSM-IV criteria or of the guy I knew first-hand. Are we dealing with two different phenomena? The same phenomena to differing degrees? I think the chief difference was that the guy I knew manifested grandiosity and dishonest boasting to such a degree that it utterly failed of its purpose, whereas the people discussed on this blog seem merely overly self-involved. So is this a "quantitative" difference or a difference in kind?

Also, the Sodini material seems to reek of *passivity* and that doesn't tally with the guy I observed or the DSM-IV criteria.

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Well one thing you need to ... (Below threshold)

August 16, 2009 8:46 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Well one thing you need to know about this blog... don't take it too seriously.
In general, TLP labels anyone a narcissist if they do/represent something he doesn't like without being overtly sociopathic.

This is a man who characterized spencer as a manipulative narcissist, but heidi (who he clearly wants to bang) is a poor young girl who is falling for his game. 5 minutes of reading that pratt's (haha) twitter will reveal what a self absorbed righteous overprivileged a-hole she really is. Oh and she has had way too much plastic surgery.

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Thoughts on this whole trip... (Below threshold)

August 16, 2009 8:46 PM | Posted by Steve: | Reply

Thoughts on this whole trip:

1. I don't think this cat was narcissistic. In fact, he was almost the polar opposite. He harbored absolutely NO delusions. His movie sucked. Not only did no one want to be in it, no one even wanted to see it or know about it. He was nobody and he knew it. I'm not sure what that is, but I don't think its narcissim.

2. Where's the RAGE? He seems frustrated at his inability to break free of what pretty much amounts to a 30 year funk, but there's no manifesto, no rage against the machine, or society or women or blacks or gays; no rambling 2,000 word rants against women......he really doesn't seem over the top. Just bored.

3. I wonder where he was when the idea to do a shoot em up occurred to him.
Did he get the idea and than look for a place, or was he in the place and than got the idea? My guess is he got the idea while he was at the Health Club. He probably walked by a room full of chicks doing aerobics and thought "gez, i could totally blow all these chicks away right now if I had a gun".

As a general rule Health Clubs blow. I can hardly think of a more toxic environment. The self conscious loathing and insecurity in those places are thick enough to cut with a knife (Just a figure of speech, thats not a subconscious red flag TLP). I could go on about these places...but sufffice to say they should be avoided at all costs...if you want to get in shape do pushups and run around the block. These places sell fantasy's, not healthy lifestyles.

The only places worse than health clubs are Corporations, which is where this poor chap spent the rest of his time.

4. I know the single (guy) life is romanticized. But it really doesn't translate well after about age 25. Single guys in their 30's and especially 40's get weird. Its like he said....no feedback loop. So you start living in your own echo chamber and saying shit like" I am well groomed and clip my nails" or "life sucks and I am a failure" over and over again, and there isn't anybody around to say "give it rest already, get outside and mow the damn lawn".

5. The media didn't like Sodini the way they liked Cho or the Dylan/Klebold. Not enough bodies? Too tough to pin down? didn't fit the script? He also didn't care about them either, he was more interested in the internet as a way to get his message out.

6. Why so few kills? 3? I wonder if he backed off somewhat? or maybe once the lights went out everybody hit the deck and he kept shooting at the walls?

7. Why is it so fucking hard these days TO GET ANYONE TO LISTEN.


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I am sorry, but narcissism ... (Below threshold)

August 16, 2009 9:30 PM | Posted, in reply to Trei's comment, by rontom: | Reply

I am sorry, but narcissism is not a soft-cushiony, escapist description. YOUR own details of his past history, his relations or lack thereof with his relatives, point to all of the characteristics and is explainable in NPD. Yes, you are right: He did a very bad, mean awful thing and that is exactly one of the horrible things that could eventuate from this disorder. TLP's spot on. However, it might be more palatable for some to make of him more sinister and an unknowing other.

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Has the blog been verified ... (Below threshold)

August 16, 2009 10:09 PM | Posted by Common Reader: | Reply

Has the blog been verified as real? Because it reads totally fake to me, like it's a bad novel.

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I agree, i had that same th... (Below threshold)

August 16, 2009 10:52 PM | Posted, in reply to Common Reader's comment, by Steve: | Reply

I agree, i had that same thought, in regard to the blog perhaps being fake. Early on I saw some folks posting their suspicion as such online as well. it appears to have held up to scrutiny and I've come to accept that it is the real deal. In some ways, I think its lame-o factor actually makes the case for its authenticity.

Were it fake I think it would be more revealing, more satisfying.......it would give you what you want, which is an explanation that makes sense. Instead of reading like a bad novel, it would read like a good novel.

I think the analysis by TLP was actually the best I've read. he really took a good swing at it that I found fascinating.

When this happens I hear a lot of people express amazement..."how could something like this happen?" I always ask myself "how come this doesn't happen more often?"

I kind of think we'll start to see more of this kind of stuff.....society is getting really fragmented and folks are getting more isolated, there aren't as many support structures in place for folks anymore.

I read something somewhere, I can't remember where or I would give credit, a social scientist I think said

"Sodini felt rejected by a community that largely doesn't exist". or some-such.

He basically thought the world was one big bud-lite commercial and he was never invited, so he sat home on Friday night while everybody else partied at beach houses and ski lodges aftre spending the day flirting at the gym. He failed to realize thats all bullshit.

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Easily the best comment her... (Below threshold)

August 17, 2009 10:10 PM | Posted, in reply to SusanC's comment, by acute_mania: | Reply

Easily the best comment here.

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"He basically thought th... (Below threshold)

August 18, 2009 12:52 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"He basically thought the world was one big bud-lite commercial ..."

Oh shit! You mean it's not?

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I think he did not kill not... (Below threshold)

August 23, 2009 5:49 PM | Posted by marianasoffer: | Reply

I think he did not kill not for all the reasons you mentioned such as running, or being a mysoginist, I think it must be attributed to a stange combination in his mind state, in the reality surrounding him, and in the entropy of the universe (I mean completelly undirected randomness), and like so many other cases that happen (most of them end up bad, not happy as this one) I belive it is practically imposible for the people to get to now and/or understand what really happen then

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I lived about 3 houses away... (Below threshold)

September 6, 2009 5:05 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I lived about 3 houses away from him growing up. What he says about his family is pretty much true. I feel bad for him and his victims.
Posted by:
ssllnnbb7 Aug-6 Mark As Violation

Foudn this and more on him. I know why he got so angry at women. They kept using him when he tried to met them. They figured out he had money to take and they took it. Then I saw this. Everything he wrote was try. To the very end he tried to make a good connection with anywomen and they did indeed reject him after they took something from him.

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More on him. A hacked got i... (Below threshold)

September 13, 2009 12:26 AM | Posted by cc : | Reply

More on him. A hacked got into his acct. One of those links looked innocous but proved to be full of stuff. We all know he was on another site posting. Turns out he knew he need cognitive therapy but tried to help himself using this stuff called qualifying the positive. To not be so negative when someone compliments you. He knew he had issues with depression but said meds "f...you up. Some do, some do not. So, maybe some made him worse and maybe cause him to go gaga. I also found two things he posted on sep. places. He drank to much pop and knew his diabetic or borderline. That left untdx or untreated can cause anxiety like problems and depression and even if you treate the diabetes the other problems remain. Why did he tan, not go get women, because elsewhere he told someone else light therapy via tan can help..... Sad disorder. That is the name of that. He said it did not affect him but it probably did. SO unless he had a family member to shove him into help he had a deadly combo of being born with depressoin, developing diabetes by drinking a two liter bottle of pepsi and he had a a lot of on him in his car.
A lot of men that get this in middle refuse to treat and die., Diabetes can kill. So, had he been treated chances are he would not have killed. He was pushing people to give them good hope and positive info on a site that for a time helped him put off this death plan then one bad answer one day was enough to send him over and maybe his new promo he may have felt he did not deserve. All a perfect storm.

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Ob i did not hack into his ... (Below threshold)

September 13, 2009 12:30 AM | Posted by cc: | Reply

Ob i did not hack into his acct some guy in Canada did. As for the gym, he joined it because of the diabetes. I noticed it by looking at how much he had weight before and thne lost weight. Common in diabetes and he noted a sore elbow, also common in people with untreated diabetes. I found a pic from two years ago and then earlier this year. He was trying to control but diet only. He parlty joined the gym to based on advice from another women he met at the dating seminar. Even the dumb punching bag. He followed thoer instructions. He had seen a dr but apparently went without meds. His churchs founder believed in not a lot of meds and especially not psycho meds. Sounds almost like scientology.

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LOL, Anonymous. It's all th... (Below threshold)

September 13, 2009 12:37 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

LOL, Anonymous. It's all the fault of teh ebyl female golddiggers that Sodini up and shot a bunch of innocent women who didn't know him.

As for this blogger... yeah. If Sodini had shot up a roomful of black people, there'd be no hesitation calling it racism. But women? Oh, NO, we CAN'T call it "misogyny." Just like the Amish school shootings, or the guy who targeted the girls only in that Colorado school, or the Ecole Polytechnique killings 20 years ago. If we were to admit that society is rife with woman-hatred, privileged morons might actually have to take a harder look at themselves.

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Bullshit!! If this had been... (Below threshold)

September 13, 2009 1:40 PM | Posted by Pitbullgirl: | Reply

Bullshit!! If this had been Jews, Latinos, Asians, African people do you think it would be because he hated those groups? Or maybe women aren't human right? Men are people, women are women.

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Women did not have a darn t... (Below threshold)

September 15, 2009 12:32 AM | Posted by cc: | Reply

Women did not have a darn thing to do with him. I found more stuff he wrote. He never told his family anything yet bemoaned his isolation. He noted he knew about a section 302, thatis something in only a handful of states and his county. Involountary commitment for a mental health issue. He knew he had depression yet did not like meds, He was doing meditation and other things and he had an out of whack blood glucose level. That alone can cause depression and anxiety if not treated., He felt his family gloated over his bad news so he stopped telling them anything I think his took out his anger out his mom and his sister or maybe his brother on the wrong people. Had he had one friend to see him change this could have been avoided.

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He did have friends, includ... (Below threshold)

September 28, 2009 3:34 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

He did have friends, including in his neighborhood. Problem was, he didn't confide in them.

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Like all terrorists, whethe... (Below threshold)

September 28, 2009 4:37 PM | Posted by Columbine101: | Reply

Like all terrorists, whether or not they realize that they're terrorists, George Sodini attacked a demographic group. And he didn't hate being rejected. He hated being rejected in favor of the sort of bully who made his life miserable. The Columbine killers made reference to this female behavior.

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addictionrecoverybasics.com... (Below threshold)

April 7, 2010 2:16 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

addictionrecoverybasics.com/what-is-a-dry-drunk/
Someone who knkew him or his family said he was a dry drunk. This is what it is.

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