February 15, 2010

Family Annihilators Don't Do It Because They Love You

madoff.JPG
phew?

Newsweek runs a story, Inside the Minds of Family Annihilators.  It describes the results of a ten year followup study which found that family murders spike when the economy is down.

The study is not out yet, but the article hits most of the key words:

control
seek to create an idealized version
humiliation
shame
rage

The general thesis is that "when the economy is in decline, jobs are scarce, tensions are high, and the control these men seek becomes harder to maintain."

The article then describes two kinds of family annihilators.  One type is:

driven by rage: they are controlling and sometimes abusive figures who derive self-worth from the authority they exert at home. But that behavior typically plunges the marriage into crisis, often prompting the wife and children to try to leave. The resulting lack of control triggers feelings of humiliation, eventually leading the father to reassert his power in a final paroxysm of violence.
Fair enough, easy to spot.  But where the article (describing the study) goes wrong is the leeway it offers the other kind: the "altruistic" killer:

The "civil reputable" killer, on the other hand, is motivated by a perverse form of altruism. "His entire identity is in his family"...Murdering his family members, then, becomes a way of rescuing them from the hardship and shame of bankruptcy and suicide.

The idea here is that the guy doesn't want his family to suffer, so he kills them. Wrong.  He's not sparing them the shame of bankruptcy, he is sparing himself the shame of having to face them every day, as a failure. 

This may seem like a trivial distinction, but it is very important.

If, as the researchers would agree, these are murders motivated by narcissism, then doing something "altruistic" (including murdering them), doing something for the other, independent of how it would affect himself, would entirely be inconsistent with that mental process.   In narcissism there is no action unless there is benefit to identity.

For example, why not just kill himself only?  Because it ends the movie as "he was a  failure."  There's no rebuttal, there's no redemption.  That's your identity forever.  That doesn't work for him.

However, he could himself so his family could get the life insurance.  That would work, provided that the family knew he killed himself for the insurance money.  Movie ends: tragic hero, sacrificed himself for others.  That's a fine ending.

Except, in most cases, insurance doesn't pay for suicide.  So in order for it to work, the man would have to tell no one about his plan.  It would have to look like an accident to everyone.  No one could know.  That selfless act-- i.e. a total denial of himself, his identity, and his motivations, would be impossible for a man whose acting from a narcissistic perspective.

This is going to seem obvious, but: for this reason, if he fails to kill his family, and then feels great remorse, you should not trust him.   When he sits before you sobbing, how could I have done this, forgive me! in some bizarre way I thought I was protecting you!  I'm so so sorry!-- don't believe it, that's not remorse because there is no guilt.  He's revealed his true self, and it shames him: when the going gets tough, he will protect his identity before anything else.


II.

In an interview, the researcher, said:

This seems to come out of nowhere. It's shocking and you can't predict it--there really aren't any red flags. They don't have a character or personality disorder.
There is one predictor; but because familial murders are so uncommon the 50% or so that this one does predict isn't going to get you any mileage.  And, unfortunately it predicts precisely because, and only if, it is undetected: the man has a secret.

The article describes how financial problems, loss of a job, etc, are precipitants, but what these murderers have in common is that the financial ruin reveals the Ponzi scheme of their life.  He didn't just lose his job; he lost his job and he had debts his wife didn't know about.  Or that he was really embezzling the money. Or he lost his job as a bartender so he can no longer pretend he's a bar owner.  That's why these men don't murder coworkers, whom they may blame or be jealous of; they murder the people they were trying to deceive.

Hence, the prevention of family murders isn't psychotherapy, it's exposing the lie.   They murder because they're afraid they are about to be revealed.  You can defuse this by getting past the terror of "about to be."  The lie closes you in; having it exposed is painful, but it allows for possibilities, hope.

If you're that guy-- and you know who you are-- own up now because the lies only get bigger.  You have already shown yourself to be less than your lie; if it gets bigger, it will be out of your control.  You don't know where you'll end up or what you'll be capable of... in ten years. 

If you're the wife, subtly make it easy for him to own up, or at least back out.  He thinks his main value is in the keeping up of appearances.  Repeatedly show him that that ,"the thing," is unimportant to you; show him you love him for something else, hell, in extreme cases suggest to him you've always wanted to live the simple life in Nicaragua.

Or run.

But there are very few things in life that are certain.  This is one: if your father or husband tries to kill you, he's not doing it for you.

http://twitter.com/thelastpsych





Comments

im 12 and what is this... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2010 3:03 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

im 12 and what is this

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Assuming that the wife of a... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2010 5:19 PM | Posted by Foobs: | Reply

Assuming that the wife of a narcissist is one of the people he "needs" to reflect his identity back to him, isn't her suddenly not caring about that identity a dangerous thing as well?

Granted, there are no good options. Like trying to execute a martingale, it isn't a problem at all until it is a huge one. Once it has reached that stage, it is down to finding a way out and to late to re-order them.

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This same thing happened to... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2010 5:57 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

This same thing happened to my husband when I was pregnant with our first. He was stealing from the business to satisfy a heroin addiction. I'm not with him now thanks God, but what stuck with me was how "relieved" he was he had gotten caught because now there was "a chance for us" (me and the baby.) It terrified me at the time. I assumed he meant he was thinking about suicide, but even then I was unnerved by how he was acting. He kept telling me how much he loved me and the baby, and he said it so many times it was eerie.

I wish you would write more about how to help those involved with narcissists. Its needed.

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I wonder if it would save a... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2010 6:29 PM | Posted by Aaron Davies: | Reply

I wonder if it would save a few lives if it were widely publicized that most life insurance policies *do* pay out for suicide, so long as it
doesn't happen within the first few years of getting the policy?

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It's funny how the source a... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2010 10:23 PM | Posted by CC: | Reply

It's funny how the source article couldn't say "altruism perverted." Which would still be wrong --still subject to Last Psych's criticism, but would be closer to the truth. What's a "perverted form of altruism"? What does that mean? Do they mean there can be 'financial form of altruism' ("here's some money"), a 'sharing form altruism' ("here's some food"), a 'self-sacrificial form of altruism' ("The attacker then dropped a grenade and Dunham hurled himself on top of it...."), AND there's such a thing as 'perverted form of altruism.' Like, that last is STILL altruism?

No, it's not. It's altruism overturned, changed into something else. Not altruism.

"Altruism perverted" would still be arguably too charitable to a sense that the killer did it FOR his family, but it could not be mistaken for a 'form of altruism.' It would plainly mean 'thing changed,' i.e., not the thing anymore.

Can you have a perverted form of a steak sandwich? Like, it's still a steak sandwich but it's just really lousy? No, you can't.

1300–50; (v.) ME perverten http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pervert

So we can't even properly call anything perverted anymore. Why not? You get one guess. So we lost a word. And a concept. And it bleeds into other words and phrases and concepts.

Last Psych missed that too.

Maybe I'm just a pedant?

What about loser sons? They just stay in the basement or get shot by intervening cops or what?

The photo of the soldiers. I followed the link and went through their gallery and the story. How did the photo of the soldiers fit?

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Or, they are a Harvard PhD ... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2010 10:32 PM | Posted by HIJ: | Reply

Or, they are a Harvard PhD who gets denied tenure by a third-tier southern commuter school. If someone's entire identity has been built up over several decades (as academics have) and then is suddenly challenged, expect problems.

Some people feel entitled to an identity they haven't earned. Even if they aren't "that good" they still want the benefits that would accrue to someone that good. Like the security guards who drive fake cop cruisers on the weekends or the fake war heroes who order combat medals off eBay. They want their fantastic self-image to be real.

There was a fellow in Westfield, NJ who killed his entire family over a debt (you know, saving them from hell and such). The police finally snagged him about 30 years later. Turns out that his house contained a Tiffany ceiling that could have made him a millionaire. I guess my point is that people who take extreme measures over stupid problems aren't the most creative. They don't realize that there are ALWAYS other options to keep your family, dignity, etc on some level.

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Oh, Alone, don't forget the... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2010 10:35 PM | Posted by HIJ: | Reply

Oh, Alone, don't forget the ultimate modern example of "altruistic killings": honor killings in the Islamic world. Better to stone your daughter than let her live with the shame of having slept with a man.

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This is what I'm talking ab... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2010 11:11 PM | Posted, in reply to HIJ's comment, by CC: | Reply

This is what I'm talking about. We're so dumb.

Look HIJ, is sex nothing?

Hold it, I had this argument with someone on this site last year.

Let me cut to the chase: It's 'honor killings' not 'honor murder suicides.'

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I think you would be more... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2010 12:29 AM | Posted by Sam: | Reply

I think you would be more effective recognizing the gender issues that lead to narcissism, rather than haphazardly blaming people for them. A lot of your observations are correct, in ignoring gender scripts (specifically masculinity) you ignore the root cause.

The reason the researcher couldn't find any queues for this form of relationship violence is because the factors that spawn this behavior are so ingrained in our society that they're often hard to distinguish. The Gender wage gap is closing, but not because women are gaining equality, but because it's cheaper to hire women (and fire overpaid men) since it's OK to pay them less. Thus the Male Breadwinner has lost his purpose in the traditional families.

This is in no way defending murder, though you MUST recognize these gender scripts in order to prevent relationship violence from occurring.

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Sam said something very sim... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2010 5:50 AM | Posted by fraise: | Reply

Sam said something very similar to what I wanted to say.

TLP, you're awesome, and you are a man. You're seeing things through the remaining little filters of male privilege you haven't quite worked out yet (and I say that precisely because it's evident from many of your posts that you are aware of several; it's refreshing).

This advice:
If you're the wife, subtly make it easy for him to own up, or at least back out. He thinks his main value is in the keeping up of appearances. Repeatedly show him that that ,"the thing," is unimportant to you; show him you love him for something else, hell, in extreme cases suggest to him you've always wanted to live the simple life in Nicaragua.

Is precisely what I tried with my narcissist ex-boyfriend. It does work... temporarily. Then the rage redoubles, because it also causes shame. Why? Here is the key: the wife is a woman. Narcissists must feel superior. To what does any narcissistic male feel superior, without question, in today's world? Women.

We. (Women.) Cannot. "Win." I put that in scare quotes because, obviously, relationships are not competitions, but narcissists see them as such. A woman cannot convince a narcissistic man to see her viewpoints: in their eyes, that would mean a rejection of their fundamental belief that women are always inferior. Wife/gf says to hubby/bf, repeatedly, sincerely, one example among many: "Gosh I love spending time with you, honey. It's lovely. We should go for little walks more often." Works temporarily, then the guy's "but she's a WOMAN, why should I listen to her?" kicks in, and he twists it into his wife or girlfriend "clearly" trying to find a way to shame him.

Because that's how they see the world! Always in terms of shame, and always in terms of they are superior, women are inferior. Women are there to reflect and service Their Grandiose Selves, not, you know, be real people with opinions. Giving credence to something a woman says, in their minds, equates to being inferior.

There is a blazingly easy way to see narcissism: be a woman. The men who say, "oh LOL isn't that cute, she thinks she's so special!" are narcissists. (Example: the few men who've walked into my office, seen there's a mountain bike behind me, NEVER assumed it's mine, then laughed when I told them it is. You want depressing? Of the dozens of men who've come in my office, only ONE has ever first assumed it is my bike. Women always assume it is - it's right behind me, for pete's sake. Most men do take me seriously when I say it is, though. I watch out for those few who laughed.)

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Ack, I thought I'd kept the... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2010 5:55 AM | Posted by fraise: | Reply

Ack, I thought I'd kept the part where I added: your advice to "run" is, however, perfect. Women with a man they realize is a true narcissist/abuser should just leave as soon as it's safe. Someone who never gives a cr*p about you, will continue finding excuses, no matter how irrational, to not give a cr*p about you.

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frais - "Is precisely what ... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2010 10:02 AM | Posted, in reply to fraise's comment, by brainchild: | Reply

frais - "Is precisely what I tried with my narcissist ex-boyfriend. It does work... temporarily. Then the rage redoubles, because it also causes shame. Why? Here is the key: the wife is a woman. Narcissists must feel superior. To what does any narcissistic male feel superior, without question, in today's world? Women."

You can reverse genders here pretty easily actually so I'm not sure that this is really a gender issue. Female narcissists feel superior to both the men they manipulate and other women generally - even though they may pretend/claim to be feminists when it's useful (Gottlieb is a great example of this). They fail to feel and express real sisterhood because they have no empathy for other people (they tend to be particularly venomous towards and/or competitive with women more attractive than themselves). They're also likely to both claim to be feminists and to try to use sex to get ahead and to control others - whatever works to gain power and manipulate others essentially.

(And to answer Sam, not all men resort to killing their families when they lose a job - most don't.)

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Wait, so did she died?... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2010 3:39 PM | Posted by Jason B: | Reply

Wait, so did she died?

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Brainchild- No, you can't j... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2010 7:18 PM | Posted, in reply to brainchild's comment, by Sam: | Reply

Brainchild- No, you can't just switch gender roles in this situation. How many women kill their entire families? (Excluding extreme PPD cases, which isn't the entire family)

While female to male violence does occur, it's much more common for male to female violence to occur (Approximately 95% of victims of relationship violence are women)
Also half of all female homicide and manslaughter victims were killed by their male partners.

If you still don't believe that this case is a gender issue please read Jackson Katz's book "The Macho Paradox."

I never said that all men who lose their jobs kill their wives. That's a gross assertion to come to from what I've stated. What I was saying is that gender scripts are so intrusive in our society that when males (and females) do not “succeed” at this, they can feel far more than inadequate. The reaction to this sort of stress is really up to the male in this situation. This is not an assertion that all males are violent, but rather that a lot of relationship violence (like the article) feeds out of gender issues.

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I have a prof at my univers... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2010 9:12 PM | Posted, in reply to HIJ's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

I have a prof at my university who spent the first three days of class talking about all the books he's written, all the "important" people he knows within his field, the presidential commendations he's received for his pioneering work, the international society he's co-founded, and how all the up and coming shrinks "don't know shit," compared to him and his old buddy who've been through the thick of it.

By day four I assumed he was a narcissist.

About a week ago a friend passed me an article in a local publication about our prof. He lost his licence in our state years back for making sexual advances on a client. After going into therapy and AA (related to an assortment of other problems - failed marriages, and the work he does in psychology), he held strong to his story that her motivations to sue him were outside his actions, and that he did nothing wrong. His therapist later commented on him possibly having narcissistic PD.

Academia is probably rife with narcissists - especially in my psych department.

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What about family annihilat... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2010 9:41 PM | Posted by Rosiecee: | Reply

What about family annihilators that are women?

Watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k0Gq_yrZ_k

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Fraise, Tell me abou... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2010 12:51 AM | Posted, in reply to fraise's comment, by I hear you: | Reply

Fraise,
Tell me about it. Don't get me wrong, I love men, looovvvee me a good man, love love love, but when I have to be around these narcissist/inferiority complex types, oh my gosh it is too much to handle sometimes. I don't understand why they think that women are less intelligent, less talented, less adventurous, less aware, less less less. Recently a co worker called me "sweetheart" condescendingly when I gave my opinion in some benign conversation about the Winter Olympics. Sweetheart? Who says that?

Coworker #1 (man): I bet Sweden's hockey team is kick ass this year.
Me: Oh yeah? how does USA look? I want to place a few bets on the games. Do you have any useful information?
Coworker #1: How much to get in?
Me: $1000. each game.
Coworker #1: Poland will be a contender
Me: Poland, are you kidding? What about Russia?
Coworker #1: Poland.
Me: How is it that Poland with a significantly smaller population and pool of talent to draw from can field a better team than Russia?
Coworker #2 (man): Why is the sky blue when the sun is shining? Poland is not so small, Sweetheart. (rolls eyes)
Me: Really? What is the population, do you know?
Coworker #2 (man): I don't know but its big.
Coworker #1 (man): Not as big as my dick.
Me: According to my huge brain, Poland has roughly 38 million people. Russia 140ish, give or take a couple million if you throw in Georgia. So comparably speaking, yes, Poland is significantly smaller in population than Russia, bitch, so don't come at me with that weak shit. this is why you still languish as 3rd counsel on special projects. Who wants to go to Warsaw!?

Anyway, this is just a moronic small scale example, but you get the picture. I used to get very incensed when I came across men like this. Now I have learned to chill and use it to my advantage. I know instantly that I am dealing with a weak player when any type of sexist shit is revealed. And then I simply exploit it efficiently.



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Alone, is there any way to ... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2010 9:26 AM | Posted by just a request: | Reply

Alone, is there any way to turn off this kosmix thingie that turns some expressions into links? It's a bit annoying and distracting.

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You mean this: <a href="... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2010 9:43 AM | Posted, in reply to HIJ's comment, by Alone: | Reply

You mean this: http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2008/05/my_daughter_deserved_to_die_fo.html

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Sam, I'm not denying domest... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2010 9:53 AM | Posted, in reply to Sam's comment, by brainchild: | Reply

Sam, I'm not denying domestic abuse or gender roles and sexism exist - obviously they do and I've experienced them myself. However, I don't consider every sexist man a narcissist just because narcissists tend to be sexist because narcissists may use sexism but they think everyone is inferior to them not just the opposite gender. Also, I don't think sexism or gender roles are an adequate explanation for why narcissists kill their partners and children or why some men or women are narcissists.

We're talking about narcissists and women can also be narcissists that abuse their partners too. Though female narcissists undoubtedly have a slightly different object/image relationship with their children. (You have inadvertently given me some interesting things to ponder vis a vis women who kill their children and narcissism though since women who commit infanticide also often believe they're being "altruistic" and doing what's best for their children. And, before you get on my case about post-partem depression, the vast majority of women with PPD don't kill their children so what makes the ones who do different?)

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Sam - the reality is that w... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2010 10:10 AM | Posted by brainchild: | Reply

Sam - the reality is that women can be narcissists, sexist (towards other women or men), and abuse their partners and children emotionally, physically and sexually too. One of the functions of sexism in our society is that these types of female on male or child violence get reported a lot less often (and taken a lot less seriously in the case of men being abused). It's worth considering how many adults who have NPD were the children of narcissistic mothers?

That said, NPD and being sociopathic are exalted in both men and women in North American culture so the fact that these behaviors are seen as not only acceptable but as something to admire and aspire to has a cultural basis. A real change will come in our culture when empathy and compassion are seen as strengths and not weaknesses.

Also, not everyone who's an idiot or who is sexist is a narcissist!

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sam - "What I was saying is... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2010 10:51 AM | Posted, in reply to Sam's comment, by brainchild: | Reply

sam - "What I was saying is that gender scripts are so intrusive in our society that when males (and females) do not “succeed” at this, they can feel far more than inadequate."

So would you say that when a woman fails as a mother - doesn't live up to a social or internal image of perfect motherhood - that she can feel far more than inadequate? And this might lead a woman to kill her children in the same way that it leads a man to kill his family? A feature of both narcissism and PPD is an inability to bond. A woman with a relatively healthy self image would resolve this problem by seeking help so she can bond with her child and put the child's welfare above her self image. A woman with a NPD would be more worried about her image than the child's welfare. As a society, we have a very hard time accepting that women are people and not just mommy objects so get horrified when women don't live up to the idealized image of nurturer and caretaker. This means many people refuse to acknowledge that women can be sexual abusers or abuse their spouses. It's no more realistic than seeing men as provider objects.

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fraise - "Women with a man ... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2010 11:06 AM | Posted, in reply to fraise's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

fraise - "Women with a man they realize is a true narcissist/abuser should just leave as soon as it's safe. Someone who never gives a cr*p about you, will continue finding excuses, no matter how irrational, to not give a cr*p about you."

This is good advice for both men and women in a relationship with a narcissist, whether they're physically violent or not. There are many, many ways that narcissists abuse and try to control their partners and children, they don't always resort to physical violence. Knowing what emotional/psychological and financial abuse looks like allows both men and women to leave abusive relationships before it gets as dangerous as it has by the time that physical abuse is involved. However, if we don't have a healthy sense of narcissism/self love, we may not see those signs (and end up in another abusive relationship). Abusive and narcissistic realationships have a dynamic - it's worth understanding it!

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The scenario you describe w... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2010 4:42 PM | Posted by : | Reply

The scenario you describe was a notorious real-life case in France. The husband never graduated from medical school but for EIGHTEEN YEARS kept up the pretense to his wife and family of being a working physician. When he was unmasked, he killed the wife, children and his parents but made only a pretense of attempting to kill himself. The book written about the episode, L'Adversaire, was also made into a fictionalized movie of the same name. The killer is still alive in prison.

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Fascinating talks about gen... (Below threshold)

February 18, 2010 1:53 AM | Posted, in reply to I hear you's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Fascinating talks about gender. It is even worse among young men in university. I am a man, but when I see this behavior it is just plain depressing. It's like they're acting like super-chimps, not humans. Their egos are so disproportional to who they are...which, for the grand majority is exceedingly average.

Perhaps one of the causes of this is grade inflation. Students in the US need to have their egos sliced in half. Education should be a meritocracy not a "monetocracy." Grade inflation is a problem but the general babying of my generation through "self-esteem boosting" (narcissism boosting, false identity boosting) by the parental generation is disastrous.

Psychologists say this sort of behavior is normal when men are young but perhaps the fact that they say it's normal exacerbates the problem by making it acceptable.

Take a kid in a university who's had a BMW or a Mercedes since he could drive. This is so nouveau riche it makes me want to vomit. What do these kids have to look forward to? What do they have to work for? What happens when daddy dies and the trust fund runs out? So now they're uneducated, poor and have this belief that they "deserve the best." How the hell are they going to raise children?

If you think things are bad now, can you imagine how it will be in 20 years.

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"Take a kid in a university... (Below threshold)

February 18, 2010 3:49 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by I hear you: | Reply

"Take a kid in a university who's had a BMW or a Mercedes since he could drive. This is so nouveau riche it makes me want to vomit. What do these kids have to look forward to? What do they have to work for? What happens when daddy dies and the trust fund runs out? So now they're uneducated, poor and have this belief that they "deserve the best." How the hell are they going to raise children?"

Anonymous, it does not matter. Having a nice car is not nouveau riche, its fucking sweeeet. Don't worry about these fictional people you have in your mind. You need to take care of your own trust fund...which is the federal government and its ability to provide you with social security and medicare when you retire at the age of 72. You're pretty fcked right now in that regard.

To your comments on younger generation men: Women can get jobs now. And lots of money. And create their own lives independently. That must be scary for an insecure younger man. Not only are they competing against stronger men, now they have to compete against women and to come in last after the stronger man and then a woman and then you. that sucks.

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A client of mine t... (Below threshold)

February 18, 2010 7:07 AM | Posted by Mark Tyrrell: | Reply

A client of mine told me how her husband had killed himself only for her to discover that he had been living a lie, didn’t have a job (although pretended he had) and was in massive debt.) His intent may have been altruistic but the effect certainly wasn't positive for his wife and kids.

A 'narcissist' will always find a way to explain acts of violence toward others in terms that look more favourable to them.

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<a href="http://www.csmonit... (Below threshold) "I put that in scare quotes... (Below threshold)

February 18, 2010 12:07 PM | Posted, in reply to fraise's comment, by Nadia: | Reply

"I put that in scare quotes because, obviously, relationships are not competitions, but narcissists see them as such."

This, this so much. I never understood why my ex boyfriend wanted to beat me at everything and put me down with things that had nothing to do with him -- a grade on an exam, visitors to my blog vs visitors to his blog -- I always thought "are you fucking kidding me?"

It all makes more and more sense. And yes, I second leaving. Once you catch on to what he is, don't even give him a reason. Just leave. Your life make sense again.

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"Don't worry about these fi... (Below threshold)

February 18, 2010 8:06 PM | Posted, in reply to I hear you's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

"Don't worry about these fictional people you have in your mind."

Pwned. Thank you, I needed that.

"Not only are they competing against stronger men, now they have to compete against women and to come in last after the stronger man and then a woman and then you. that sucks."

Are you saying men are strong than women because you put MEN first?!!? hahah. Yeah. Don't forget people from other countries as well. Travel is only getting easier => more globalization. India has more honors students than American has students. Not trying to say that America is going to "fall" or anything, but any industry will want the best workers, which doesn't always mean american ones.

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Thoughts on Joe Stack- Spen... (Below threshold)

February 19, 2010 11:40 AM | Posted by InAustin: | Reply

Thoughts on Joe Stack- Spent his whole life maintaining his "quiet engineer bass player pilot" identity. All of his friends are saying the plane crash incident is very "out of character" and none of them knew of his anti-government crusade. A bandmate of his even said he was the "quintessential, stereotypical, straight out of central casting, mild-mannered, bespectacled engineer type." Joe came up with a compelling end to his movie.

My question is- did he burn his house down to get insurance money to be a hero to his wife?

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"There is a blazingly easy ... (Below threshold)

February 19, 2010 2:19 PM | Posted, in reply to fraise's comment, by spiffymcgee: | Reply

"There is a blazingly easy way to see narcissism: be a woman."

Wow.

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Joe Stack did find an end to his movie. He sacrificed his life for "everyone" that has been mistreated by the IRS.

Might he have burned his house because he was in fear of it being repossessed? You know, the "if I can't have it no one can" attitude. Or, "at least you won't get my house, I'll make sure of that," attitude. If it was going to be siezed, it's not like it would be any use to his family right?

On a side note, I used to work in the building directly next to that one....creepy.

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Too bad Joe was a psycho an... (Below threshold)

February 19, 2010 3:35 PM | Posted, in reply to InAustin's comment, by InBliss: | Reply

Too bad Joe was a psycho and chose to act out his anger in this way because he had some good points about the IRS and the inequitable tax code which has fcked this country over.
Instead of destroying an office building, he could have signaled his protest in a more effective way- perhaps in a Martin Luther King Jr. manner. I would have joined his cause.

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i am a woman lookine a good... (Below threshold)

October 9, 2010 10:11 AM | Posted by stella: | Reply

i am a woman lookine a good man that i can call my love ok
i am a woman lookine a good man that i can call my love ok
i am a woman lookine a good man that i can call my love ok
i am a woman lookine a good man that i can call my love oki am a woman lookine a good man that i can call my love ok

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Are you sure this is a male... (Below threshold)

March 22, 2013 5:53 AM | Posted, in reply to I hear you's comment, by Atarii: | Reply

Are you sure this is a male thing? I have met females who do that. I KNOW females who do that. All the time.
I know of NO man who does that because men do not generally want to be seen as cartoons.

I'm not being defensive, I'm genuinely surprised at this douchenozzle's behavior. What an obnoxious thing for him to say. I'm glad you were able to lay a verbal and intellectual smack-down on his ridiculous statement.

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