July 26, 2010

Mel Gibson Audio Tapes: A Closer Look At What Was Said

mel and oksana.jpg
ain't we a pair, raggedy man


The purpose is not to criticize either one or to place blame; the purpose is to prevent this from happening to you.

(transcript from Salon.com, with corrections made by me listening to the tapes on Radaronline.)

Tape 1:


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tape1-2.PNG
tape1-3.PNG






Comments

What does it say under "Sel... (Below threshold)

July 26, 2010 6:20 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

What does it say under "Select whole table"?

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I have lost lots of girlfri... (Below threshold)

July 26, 2010 8:42 PM | Posted by Paula: | Reply

I have lost lots of girlfriends over the crazy men they choose to date or marry. Not so much male friends but I have few of them. I have seen people become better in relationships and some go off the cliff.
Some people seem to get very ill and especially competative with the other person. Besides thier personality disorders being expressed more.
People think they are in control of them selves or can control the other-we are really effected by our envirnments.

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Perhaps the reason Mel is u... (Below threshold)

July 26, 2010 11:43 PM | Posted by Nik: | Reply

Perhaps the reason Mel is using racial slurs is that he's not so much a racist, than it's that nigger, wet back, etc, they're hate filled trigger words. He's using them as obscenities against her, like cunt or bitch. He's angry so he's using all the most poisonous language at his disposal against her.

TLP is right, he is reasoning like a child. A child hears curse words and uses them correctly without realizing their full implications. A 9 year old calling someone a nigger isn't going to understand the history behind the word, only that when people are mad they use it. This doesn't excuse Mel, he's a full grown man, he should be able to understand. Then again, he doesn't realize he's being taped. No where does he say, "I hope you get raped by a pack of niggers because black people represent all that is wrong with the world."

In the end, he's trying to get an emotion out of her. He's being as intense and cruel as he can because he wants to see that she cares/cared enough about him that his words still hurt. That his opinion means something to her.

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I heard a rumor that there ... (Below threshold)

July 27, 2010 1:48 AM | Posted by Knives: | Reply

I heard a rumor that there is evidence these tapes have been edited (and the photos of physical abuse forged). Does anyone know if this is true? The details of Mr. Gibson's personal life are his business, but trying to analyze the conversation without proper context will be difficult.

Given that she is a non-native speaker of English, she may have no idea what he means by "foreign bodies" and doesn't understand what her answers to his questions actually mean.

Does anyone know her history with plastic surgery? This could easily be a fight about her running off and getting some work done (no doubt at the insistence of her handlers) without Mel's knowing. And this could easily make him angry because this behavior is greatly at odds with her behavior or professed beliefs about this sort of thing before marriage.

I don't have any intuition as to his personal beliefs other than that he is Catholic, but don't they sort of frown on "desecrating" the human body in that way?

As to his arguing like a child, perhaps he feels, as an actor, what she will understand best is simple arguments or reasoning - perhaps again, due to a language gap.

This is not to defend Mr. Gibson, but to shed light on the very real probability that what's going on behind the scenes is very complicated - I doubt even the closest friends of the family know the true story or of what goes on behind closed doors.

What we have here is most likely a highly polished piece of media published with the intent to damage his image. If it were really a concern of hers to get a restraining order against him or some other kind of justice, it would just be a piece of evidence in some kind of trial. But Gibson's reputation was already irrevocably tarnished in previous incident(s?) so this can't amount to much more than a petty fight.

Again, I don't know these people any better than anyone here, which is to say, not at all. I refer you to the tagline of this blog.

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Protip: Most editors (Word ... (Below threshold)

July 27, 2010 4:43 AM | Posted by nwt: | Reply

Protip: Most editors (Word in this case, I guess) support exporting as basic HTML.

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I also considered her being... (Below threshold)

July 27, 2010 5:56 AM | Posted by Ben: | Reply

I also considered her being a non-native speaker as an explanation for the asymmetry in the dialogue, until I listened carefully to the transcript and read her (wikipedia) bio. (I taught ESL in college for a few years abroad, with which supremacy I authoritatively declare that) Nobody who can use idioms like "I said nothing of the kind", with that much musical talent (often associated with linguistic aptitude), and that much drive to over-achieve would stumble over any language Gibson could produce. Her English is probably better than his (and given that he's Australian, probably much better).

He was bearing his twisted, decrepit soul, and she was playing to the gallery.

I'm always a pretty sceptical of familial determinism, but Christopher Hitchens argued that Gibson was demeaning her just like his father demeans all (his imagined) heretics. I wonder if anybody with more knowledge about whether there might be anything to that:
("Mel Gibson isn't just a narcissist" http://www.slate.com/id/2260937/)

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For what it's worth, I'm a ... (Below threshold)

July 27, 2010 6:16 AM | Posted by Nancy Lebovitz: | Reply

For what it's worth, I'm a pretty skilled native speaker of English, and I had no idea what he meant by "foreign bodies" until I read the notes. Perhaps it would have been clearer in Hollywood or because of previous quarrels. I'd tentatively guessed that he was accusing her of taking drugs while nursing.

I'm not sure about the highly specific mind-reading that TLP is using. I'd go for the more general interpretation that Gibson doesn't want her to decide her own value-- he wants control of her ability to feel good or secure (the latter is the stuff about her living in a house that he still owns), and he's making it clear that he's trying to use that control to make her feel bad.

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dropped the ball on this on... (Below threshold)

July 27, 2010 9:35 AM | Posted by Joyce James: | Reply

dropped the ball on this one, Lasty. I usually dig your stuff, but why waste time on celebrity bullshit meant to distract? Nobody gives a rat's ass. Back to the meat, please, no more gristle.

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I thought I was the only on... (Below threshold)

July 27, 2010 9:51 AM | Posted by Another Mel Gibson: | Reply

I thought I was the only one who did that "trick." I never thought of it that way, either, I thought I was doing her a "parting" favor by steering her away from the kinds of men she had dated in the past. Now I see it was just my way of keeping her away from other men. I thought it was selfless and I actually patted myself on the back for rising above the break-up and helping her date a better quality of man.

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Well, we don't really know ... (Below threshold)

July 27, 2010 11:51 AM | Posted by medsvstherapy: | Reply

Well, we don't really know Mel, but all of this fits a pattern. deep down, he feels unlovable. Why? I have no idea. Is his father a preacher? Well, that gives a decent set-up for a parent with high expectations, which cannot be fulfilled, in order to have unconditional parental love. [If this is the case, his father might want to crack open the Bible and start reading abt God's unconditional love.]

Either way: he has the psychic pain that is involved if you truly feel you are worthless, and unlovable, and you belong nowhere in the world, and you can turn to no one and expect warmth, friendship, acceptance, or anything simply based on the fact that you exist; you get what you can through compromises and temporary arrangements, and you had best watch for the moment when any temporary alliance begins to go bad.

But is it true that he is actually that lousy and worthless? Not if he can sustain a persona that is worthy and admirable. Then, he could hold his head high anywhere. This is the narcissistic solution to the pain. It requires the flip of where the pain comes from - instead of ever-present scorn or disinterest, it requires admiration. Ever-present. Where do you get that? You could look in the mirror, but you better be good-looking. You could look on your trophy shelf, but someone may win next year. If flashbulbs are popping, then it is pretty assured. If you can point out how others are less than you, then that helps. If you are an authority on MLB, or micro-brews, or Japanese toys, and you can corner a captive audience and impress them with your worthiness on the topic, say, at some party, or at work, where colleagues cannot easily escape, then that might work. And so on.

But all of that is a lot of work.

If you could just get a wife who is herself a standard-bearer of worthiness, and if she thoroughly appreciates you, then you have got it made. You have validation, plus social contact.

Works pretty well!

But there are two limits.

If she wanders, you lose that admiration and endorsement.

If she falls from worthiness, then you lose the admiration from a worthy person.

What makes a woman worthy? Well, toward the end of Proverbs, Mel may have read the thumbnail sketch of the worthy wife.

Or, if the entire world admires the woman, that might work, also.

How to find such a woman? And keep her?

well, if you find someone who is worthy to the entire world, but does not realize this, and you can fool her into thinking that she is not so admirable, she will be admirable, but will not think twice about leaving you, and spoiling everything.

So, you order a beautiful but desperate, dependent Russian bride. And do the little things it takes to make her doubt her own worthiness. Plus, keep her from any sources that would give her the idea that she has any worth, and deserves to be treated respectfully, just for being yet another human.

I totally see Mel in the hypothetical panic this scenario would create. But who knows? Maybe he was just trying to get into character for some upcoming role?

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Excellent analysis-- a real... (Below threshold)

July 27, 2010 11:52 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Excellent analysis-- a real warning to those who think like this and those involved with those who do.

Question, though I suspect I can infer the answer: why would a man as famous and good looking as Mel Gibson act like this? Is it that he's getting older (which would explain why he never did it to his wife?) or is it something about the nature of their relationship which is based on image?

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Mel Gibson is driven insane... (Below threshold)

July 27, 2010 12:43 PM | Posted by wisegirl: | Reply

Mel Gibson is driven insane by the thought of his desirable girlfriend getting away from him and how that will make him look to others, especially other men.
In reality, when a woman leaves a good man, that man becomes more endearing in the eyes of others. Men want to include him more and women want to set him up or be there to pick up the pieces.
But, the narcissist doesn't care about being loved, only envied.
Also, Mel didn't do this with his first wife because he didn't feel threatened by her sexual appeal relative to his. Although she is a beautiful woman she isn't the type of woman you have on your arm to make a statement. THe statement being look how powerful I am.

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I suspect it is that neithe... (Below threshold)

July 27, 2010 1:56 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Felan: | Reply

I suspect it is that neither has the (skill and perspective) to navigate it to something else or if they did they were distracted by the image.

Rather than question the internal idea they had of each other, they question each other. Neither understands where this is coming from and takes offence and then a cycle of escalating questioning then attacking kicks in and before either really knew it they hated each other.

Digest with care I'm a shade of crazy.

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Joyce - you seem to be of t... (Below threshold)

July 27, 2010 9:25 PM | Posted by voted down probably: | Reply

Joyce - you seem to be of the opinion that your opinion is more important than everyone elses. I am here to tell you that you are very, very misinformed.

Anyway, I'm pretty much putting my chips on TLP being wrongish. I think TLP is the one sexually preoccupied with this woman and this is coloring much of his analysis. The sexual language Gibson is hurling at her doesn't suggest attraction but disgust. He is trying to make her feel like a whore. He KNOWS this is a woman who has used men her entire life to get where she is, and she did this via sex. He is hitting her where it hurts, he knows exactly what he's doing. This is only about him in so much as it reveals him for the abusive control freak he really is. This woman has always used sex and charm to get where she is, and gibson is letting her know that she is a cheap gold digging whore worth nothing (which he knows is where it hurts). If this were a woman who had earned her way and never relied on men to get ahead, his insults would be impotent, meaningless, idiotic.

I don't think mel gibson feels unlovable at all. I think mel gibson is very angry when things don't go his way, I think mel gibson has no ability to care about or understand other people's wants needs or desires and all he is capable of is a single emotion: outrage and anger when his needs wants desires are not immediately granted. A lot of men seem to be this way. Major empathy deficit. The raw ingredients of a psycho or a narcissist.

Everyone seems to agree mel gibson has always had an "anger problem". Most of the time, in my experience, people with "anger problems" are nothing more than severely deficient in empathy to the point where they are only capable of seeing/feeling their own needs wants and ideas... this creates anger and frustration constantly, as you can imagine, which then lead to outbursts.
Here's how it works: I want A, but object doesn't want A, and object is in my way. Result? ANGER, RAGE, FRUSTRATION. People with empathy don't get that way because they don't see "object", they see another person who has different priorities, and they accept that the other person is not compliant with their own wishes desires goals ideas. But people without empathy just view others as annoyances constantly getting in their way, frustrating and angering them with their contention and noncompliance and such.

We can see this happening real time on the tape. Mel is so fucking pissed this woman isn't doing exactly waht he wants (hide in a house somewhere, hidden from other men, from the world, totally and completely under his control) and he is screaming and freaking out and trying to beat the humanity and independence out of her via humiliating language... cutting her where he thinks it will rip out her humanity. He is obviously powerless, and he knows it, and this produces the rage. He can't STAND the idea that this object is not compliant, he can't DEAL with his lack of power.

It's that simple IMO.

All of the crap about his own insecurities, eh, that's too deep I don't think mel gibson is self loathing at all, I think it is obvious he has confidence out his ears and he is so self possessed that he doesn't see others much at all.
A lot of men seem to be this way. It's something about being male, I think. Sorta like autism, like sociopathy like narcissism, sorta like all these behaviors so common in men... a total self absorption, a total disrespect for others as having any rights or worth, a total need to control everything in the environment, a complete isolation from the world emotionally speaking, it's rather common in a lot of men I think.

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Mel wasn't threatened by hi... (Below threshold)

July 27, 2010 9:31 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Mel wasn't threatened by his wife because she never defied him. People, mel doesn't CARE about other men, mel only cares about mel and his control over everyone and everything in his tiny bubble world. Mels' wife was always compliant. She bred his children and hid in a house and never had any individuality. He left her,HE left HER. Why would he be angry with such a woman? If his wife were to get breast implants and to dress sexually and to try to do her own thing (maintain personal power and independence), and REFUSE to conform to the role of "mel's object - mel's property" then I think it is highly likely he would have been just as*infuriated* with her as he is this russian woman.

Catholicism is just a cover, a justification, for an innate NEED to dominate and control every one and everything in his radius. Many men use religion for this purpose. Many men have this desire and use religion to justify it.

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What? You have no stomach f... (Below threshold)

July 28, 2010 6:22 AM | Posted by David: | Reply

What? You have no stomach for the racist and bigoted comments, Alone? They're specifically directed against Oksana Grigorieva and should be part of the deconstruction. They're a documented part of Gibson's verbal history when he loses control and has to demean someone, some group, some ethnicity, some religion.

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Most fundamentalist religio... (Below threshold)

July 28, 2010 8:43 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Most fundamentalist religions seem to be a codified form of narcissism.
1. belief in being the "chosen" people so more special and entitled than others
2. focus on controlling the minute details of less powerful people's lives (women, children, men lower in the hierarchy)
3. prone to resorting to violence to enforce their will and belief their violence is "good" and that of others against them is "evil"
4. unrealistic and false self image, often contradicted by actions
5. desire to destroy and obliterate anyone who contradicts this false self image

etc...

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"I heard a rumor that there... (Below threshold)

July 28, 2010 3:27 PM | Posted, in reply to Knives's comment, by Alex-5: | Reply

"I heard a rumor that there is evidence these tapes have been..."

Yes. That's 100% TV phrase. And TV thinking. Don't argue just the conclusions, do not accept the form of argument. Try to find something that'll make you turn the TV off.

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Fundamentalism and narcissi... (Below threshold)

July 28, 2010 7:11 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Fundamentalism and narcissism seem to go hand and hand, of course, but they put their hearts in their religion (from which is gained a strong "identity"), not towards God.

There are exceptions to what I am about to say (e.g., scientology) but the true, purest purpose of religion is enable its practitioners to return to a state of union with The Divine.

But fundamentalists will even oust their own practitioners who point their hearts towards God: mystics are a threat to the established order.

Agreed, religion seems to have been exhausted as a vehicle for achieving its original purpose. Not because it is inherently bad but because instead of using it for its original purpose it is being used to strengthen one's sense of identity.

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Religions have had many pur... (Below threshold)

July 28, 2010 9:34 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Religions have had many purposes depending on who are using them - I think making claims that religion's "true" purpose is some pristine gnostic ideal is a bit silly. You can best determine who someone is by what they do, the same is true regarding the purpose of any institution or structure. It's true purpose is revealed by the actions and behaviors, not by the idealized image presented to cover up the reality. So you can best know religion (and it's "true" purpose) by looking at what is done in the name of religion (and using the massive wealth and power of religious organizations) and not what people claim it's all about. The gnostic extreme - which is just the other side of the Fundamentalist coin - is still about an unrealistic ideal (but in this case indulging in a more borderline fantasy of merging with god and escaping oneself/reality).

But, hey, I'm quite happy to be human, with all that entails and without a belief in an imaginary sky daddy/mommy who will provide me everlasting existence and magically provide a non-human experience of life. I'm okay with being of no cosmic importance and not the center of the universe. I also don't need to avoid the idea/reality of my own death or the fragility of life by pretending that I won't really die. Nor do I need to be promised heavenly rewards or hellish punishments to behave like a pro-social human being. Besides, you can have all those ecstatic gnostic peak experiences and be an atheist - that's neurobiology not god! :-)

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Of course, being an atheist... (Below threshold)

July 28, 2010 10:00 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Of course, being an atheist certainly doesn't mean one can't have a NPD - all it means that one has no belief in god/s or goddess/es. Humans are humans, and we are all animals, no matter how much we try to pretend we're neither and really some magical entity or god trapped in a human body. Of course, the belief in the soul is very much based in the nature of our brain and how glitchy cognition and perception actually are. And the power of religion is very much based in making people feel ashamed for being human (and claiming the pleasant parts of being human are really divine and not human).

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<a href="http://www.gifbin.... (Below threshold)

August 3, 2010 5:21 AM | Posted by Alex-5: | Reply

http://www.gifbin.com/981905

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I doubt very much that Mel ... (Below threshold)

July 17, 2012 6:49 AM | Posted by Tracy: | Reply

I doubt very much that Mel Gibson is a narcissist. He is actually known in Hollywood for being the type of man to reach out to others going through bad times. He also, WITHOUT FANFARE (the key here), donates a lot to charity. My take is that he's a man who is human and flawed, like everyone else, and felt betrayed by this woman for whatever reason. He's an actor, an emotional type, and when he gets angry, he gets ANGRY. He strikes me as having a lot of psychic pain, though; underneath his anger is great sadness. I'd guess he has "borderliney" feelings of unworthiness to the core and that something in this relationship triggered those feelings in him.

IMO, too, jealousy is natural to men and women, and not necessarily a sign of "narcissism." I also don't think it's "abusive" or "controlling" for a man to want his wife to keep her "wares" to herself, as it were, when in public.

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"[Niggers, jews, wetbacks e... (Below threshold)

March 12, 2014 3:36 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"[Niggers, jews, wetbacks etc] If he hates all the races, why did he choose a Russian to have a baby with?"

1. You don't get that Russians (Slavs) are fully Caucasian? Or, 2. You think of a nationality (Russian) as a race?
Or 3. You don't believe there is any such thing as Race?
Which of these 3 stupids is your stupid, stupid?

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<a href="http://en.wikipedi... (Below threshold)

March 12, 2014 4:41 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs#Genetics

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Yup--100% "White". Thanks<... (Below threshold)

March 12, 2014 5:38 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Yup--100% "White". Thanks

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Sigh. There's a reason you ... (Below threshold)

March 12, 2014 5:48 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Sigh. There's a reason you never did well in science classes, isn't there?

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"Sigh. There's a reason...... (Below threshold)

March 12, 2014 6:45 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

"Sigh. There's a reason...etc"

Whoaboy, we got an anti-racist scold! Such biting wit, such cooly distant sarcasm. "Sigh" you sound like a feminist scold too, or a gay. Did I get you right, you're a a Jezebel-Gawker-Salon Progressive Scold, either an Overweight Feminist or a Effete Fag, here to sneer down your nose at some stranger on the internet?

Look Miss, I know not all Russians are Slavs, and I know not all Slavs are Russian, and bla bla bla, the fact is, you know and I know what I'm saying is Mel's Russian is a White woman, and everybody knows the vast majority of Russians are White people by any practical sense, so why are you trying to scold me but pretend like you don't care anyway while you're doing it? You're on the internet. Relax and unclench. Mel got with a White woman who's from Russia. It was stupid to suggest she was from "another race". It's not a big deal.

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