October 22, 2010

How Not To Meet Women

pirateship.jpg
and so man invented mermaids

A diversion:

As I was writing this, in a bookstore, a twenty something woman approaches a table two away from mine.  Next a man approaches, and he chooses the table that is in between mine and hers.   For the next fifteen minutes he pretends to read a book.  He may as well be eating a plate of spiders or playing with uranium, it is impossible not to focus on him, his nonchalance is tremendously distracting. 

But the woman doesn't notice him.  She is engrossed in her magazine and soup.  That is the lie he is telling himself.

Of course she noticed him.  She noticed him as soon as he walked in.  Why do men assume pretty girls have visual field defects?  Hope.  The fact that she hasn't looked up at him is evidence that she noticed.  She doesn't dare reveal it. 

I've seen this movie before, and I've also seen the sequels.  What he should do, if this is the suicide mission he wants, is to walk up to her early on, "hi..." and do his audition.   Then she could either ask for his headshot or tell him she really likes his work but she's looking for someone who can play younger and less gay.   But he doesn't audition, Instead, he stalks her for the duration of her tolerance.  There's no other thing in the universe we get this way, not a job or food or airplane tickets, but somehow sitting at a table and not not looking at someone is somehow magically supposed to somehow result in anal.  (Woah, that was jarring.)

I can't focus on either my computer or my sandwich, I am certain she can't either.  But she's trapped in herself, too.  She can't read her book and she can't get up and leave because it would be too obvious why she was leaving and she has that middle class guilt of making people feel rejected "for no reason."  So we three sit, each pretending we're not aware of the others.   None of us gets anything accomplished (well, this.)

How long you wait before your audition is inversely proportional to how much she wants to talk to you.  Read that again: not will be-- is.  That's quantum mechanics.

II.

So how's a modern woman supposed to politely decline the advances of a future parole violator?  If you say, "I just want to read my book," it's easily taken as an insult by comparison, "what, I'm not more important than a stupid book?  Who knew sluts could read.  Oh, it's Vogue and you're just looking at the pictures.  Dumb whore."  (Hey wildman, easy...)

A good rejection can't leave room for comparison.  For example, what she could say is, "no thank you, I just came because I need some time alone."  A neutral, soft, non-ego threatening dismissal.  You don't know what's going on in this woman's life, something, but whatever it is it was enough for her to want to be Alone.  Ok.   No one, least of all the most pathological narcissist, will argue with the logic that self takes precedence over non-self.

And this dismissal can also yield important information: anyone who doesn't respect the message is probably registered in a database, because it always means: "well, my self is more important than your self."

III.

"Hold on, Backbeard, I don't know what kind of women you have trapped on the quarterdeck but how do you know she isn't nervous herself, and wants you to come over?"  Stop it.  You're going to meat [no sic] your future wife in a bookstore with an unrehearsed cold approach, Cat's Cradle, and a triple espresso?  Really?  Has that ever worked for you before? 

"Well, no, if I'm being honest I just want to sleep with her."  Well, ho me wench.  You're that guy?  Take a look at yourself.  You're so smooth you can operate in daylight?   Sober?  And she's sober?  You know there are security cameras around, right?  You think you're going to lay your ycombinator rap on her?

"Well, some people can meet a girl in a bookstore."  NOT YOU.  "It worked one time."  Then you didn't stalk her, did you?

I don't blame the guy for being nervous, I blame him for thinking he can bend reality to his will.   Figure out what kinds of environments you are good in, think where are the types of women that are right for you, go there.   Being good at football doesn't mean you are good at soccer.  Or dancing.  Or Spanish.  Ask Chad Ochocinco.  "But I like soccer!" Stop it.  No one likes soccer.   Don't do this to yourself, or to some girl who will add the construct of you to her Fiend Folio and ruin it for the next potential soccer player who wants to audition/register.  Oh, have I placed metaphors where they don't belong?  Exactly.

Don't torment and punish yourself with things you don't really want anyway.  Things you want for the wrong reasons.

And don't do it in public.  We're all trying to eat here.

---

http://twitter.com/thelastpsych






Comments

I feel the opposite problem... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 12:18 PM | Posted by Jim: | Reply

I feel the opposite problem when the last table available is next to an attractive woman. While I had no options, that doesn't eliminate the perceived threat of an awkward conversation. There needs to be a way to say "Don't worry. I know you're out of my league.", but even that sounds like a come-on.

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I wonder if girls wonder th... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 12:41 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I wonder if girls wonder the same thing when they see a hot guy and the singluar empty chair in close proximity. Doesn't seem to fit the stereotypes of male/female courtship etiquette or female self-image though right? Cultural stereotypes... they're so pervasive we can't even imagine how to-be couples would court each other in a country that doesn't have 50 states. Maybe a teenage girl or boy who's been raised by coyotes and had only been taught the sentence "your smoking hot, the nearest coffee shop is down the block" will end up with a date every single time they walk into a bookstore.

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"Well, some people can m... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 12:51 PM | Posted by Anon: | Reply

"Well, some people can meet a girl in a bookstore." NOT YOU.

On the plus side, a youth dedicated to ignoring this principle is a rich source of mortifying memories.

Your two a.m. attacks of terrifying self-clarity are guaranteed to be lively, well into middle age.

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as a decidedly unattractive... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 12:55 PM | Posted by joycejames: | Reply

as a decidedly unattractive woman, I'm fairly used to being invisible, so this problem doesn't come up much. Which is nice, I get my reading done. However, the problem I notice is, at my job--when men DO talk to you they get very irritated if I'm busy chopping vegetables or frying something up or filling coffee or making drinks because--gosh, you're UGLY and I'm deigning to speak to you, and you actually think you matter enough to not give me your full attention when I'm demanding it (if they are placing an order, of course, they have my full attention) I've actually had a customer STEAL a notebook of mine, I had to ask them to return it and the reason was "I wanted to read what was so important" re: more important than HIM. Ah, being unattractive means everyone feels the right to wrong you...

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Next post: How to Meet Wom... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 1:05 PM | Posted, in reply to joycejames's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Next post: How to Meet Women

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Those encounters make me nu... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 1:58 PM | Posted by HedgeMage: | Reply

Those encounters make me nutty. I considered them inevitable when I was hot 17yo coed HedgeMage; yet it happens only slightly less often to round nearly-30 karate mom HedgeMage. Somehow I thought that by now I'd have stopped attracting "those guys". No dice.

I didn't have the particular upbringing you mention, so I'm perfectly comfortable gently (or not-so-gently) dissuading the jerks.

@Jim:
I find it's easy to tell whether a guy is "just there" or doing the kind of distracting, purposeful nonchalance Alone spoke of.

@Anonymous:
The feminine version of the passive approach is more straightforward and less self-deluding: the woman sits nearby, bats her eyelashes, makes and breaks eye contact, licks her lips pointedly in his direction, etc. It's not verbal, but it's direct. There's interaction. He can respond or not, and she'll "get it" either way. It's silly, but it is a long-standing pattern because it *works*.

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I used to be an attractive ... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 2:01 PM | Posted by Lise: | Reply

I used to be an attractive woman, but never had this problem in a bookstore. When I read, I really read. It's as if I fall into a deep hole. I will be absolutely unaware of anything else going on. So the guy who thought I didn't notice him was, in fact, correct.

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maybe the girl really was o... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 2:06 PM | Posted by French Retirement: | Reply

maybe the girl really was oblivious. maybe she doesn't think she is pretty and doesn't expect to be approached. some girls have this problem- they have no idea of their beauty.

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perhaps because they are no... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 2:10 PM | Posted, in reply to French Retirement's comment, by French Retirement: | Reply

perhaps because they are not told of it very often. Men must be aware that one of the best and simplest things that you can do in a relationship is to recognize your woman's beauty- and often. "You are beautiful" is just about as good as "I love you."

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I agree. If I am reading, I... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 2:34 PM | Posted, in reply to Lise's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

I agree. If I am reading, I am reading. I rarely read alone in bookstores and would do that in private; if I go out to a bookstore I am usually with people having coffee and stuff.

I argue there's probably something wrong with most people who frequently go to bookstores and sit alone to read. I would argue these people are either messed up in the head (1) have no place to go to be alone and read which also makes them messed up (2) actually ARE looking to meet people (3).

This doesn't make it okay for anyone to bother you while you are just trying to read, but it's also true that frequently going to a bookstore by yourself seems like the activity of someone who wants to meet people.

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"maybe she doesn't think sh... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 4:08 PM | Posted, in reply to French Retirement's comment, by popo: | Reply

"maybe she doesn't think she is pretty and doesn't expect to be approached. some girls have this problem- they have no idea of their beauty."

Don;t be ridiculous man. I thought this was the no spin zone?
Every single person over 20 knows exactly how attractive they are, based on how often people try to have sex with them.

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I argue there's pr... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 4:23 PM | Posted by David: | Reply

I argue there's probably something wrong with most people who frequently go to bookstores and sit alone to read.
You mean, as opposed to watching movies or eating or exercising or sleeping alone-as in the act of being alone? Or are you referring to the act of reading? Because I agree, it's pretty deviant to be interested in books and reading. Even more deviant to actually read. And most deviant to view it as one of life's pleasures as well as priorities. Now, that's just sick.
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This is the problem with se... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 4:38 PM | Posted by jj: | Reply

This is the problem with self-help pick-up culture like Speed Seduction and The Game etc., it does not take place in reality. You can read that script all day long, you're in your own movie and she doesn't know what the fuck you're on about. Or she does, which is worse.

Alone nails it in part III: so, what, you expect to meet someone and start the beginning of a relationship in a bookstore? Or you just want a fuck and you forgot this wasn't a brothel? Unrealistic bullshit world view + misplaced confidence (but not enough to try and fail).

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Jesus - the poor kid was ju... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 5:02 PM | Posted by Aurini: | Reply

Jesus - the poor kid was just trying to meet a girl. I'm all for harshyly hateful and over-the-top constructive criticism, but all you've got here is the criticism part.

The way you're writing it makes him sound like a creep; he wasn't fondling himself and leering at her, he was just working up the cojones to approach. Should he just give up? Live a life of solitude and internet porn? Every guy is stuck in this scenario - successful pickups mark you as a Stud, and often do lead to long term relationships (particularly when they occur at a bookstore as opposed to a club). Failed pickups almost inevitably lead to being labeled a 'creep', regardless of whether or not it's deserved.

I suspect the reason his failure upsets you so much is because it reminds you of your own failed pickup attempts - Lord knows it reminds me of my own - so why all the hate? Cut the kid (and your younger self) some slack.

Or am I just missing the irony, and is this whole post meta? Alone writing a narrative from the perspective of a narcissist? Better to never try, than to have your illusionary image of self shattered?

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Making the relationship thi... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 5:06 PM | Posted by Chris Wilson: | Reply

Making the relationship thing work takes preparation for most guys. It starts with a long look in the mirror and a good, honest assessment of what you're bringing to the table. There's a concept I call the Appearance Delta that governs a lot what you then need to do to be successful. But it gets a whole lot deeper...

http://enlightenedcaveman.com/2005/12/19/relationships_101_part_1_ident/

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Once on a five hour bus rid... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 5:26 PM | Posted by Nadia: | Reply

Once on a five hour bus ride, a guy left his seat in the back of the bus, sat next to me, and tried to chat me up for the entire trip.

I was going to visit my boyfriend. I felt awkward, but he felt completely at ease I guess. I still don't understand how he thought that would go well. A five hour, inescapable first date? Lovely.

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P.II p.2 l.5 : Very nice.</... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 5:31 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

P.II p.2 l.5 : Very nice.

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I agree Aurini, to me it so... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 5:40 PM | Posted, in reply to Aurini's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

I agree Aurini, to me it sound like a bit of jealousy on alone's part (because he is much older than the guy and girl involved and there is a tinge of resentment).

I also fail to see the problem with trying to talk to a girl in a bookstore, assume you are normal about it and try to strike up a conversation sans leering or inappropriate suggestions. A bookstore is a good place to meet someone who may have common interests.

I also disagree with alone that this guy (and this girl) where even aware of each other. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. I don't think every guy who sits at a nearby table is automatically thinking about me, unless it is obvious he is (glancing at me and such). It seems more like alone's thoughts were trumping anything that may (or may not) have been happening IRL.

This post is rife with projection.

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Some girls don't know they ... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 5:44 PM | Posted, in reply to popo's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Some girls don't know they are attractive. I don't see why that is so hard to believe given the frequency of eating disorders and body image problems in young women. If a girl gets a lot of attention, she may not think "hey, I am getting this attention because I am cute" , she may just take it for granted as how men act toward women (as she has no other experience, she does not realize unattractive women do not get as much attention).

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I agree with anonymous at 2... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 5:46 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by karen: | Reply

I agree with anonymous at 2:34's suggestion, that seeking (expecting?) solitude/isolation in the midst of other people is contradictory behavior, though I am hesitant to describe it as messed up unless that person is actually using it as a way to mess with other people/themselves. The vibe of a place also makes a difference, and learning to read it is also a skill worth learning, and skills take observation, trial & error, IMHO. But nobody gets a pass on learning to recognize or enforce their own boundaries, even, and especially, attractive women.

Similarly, the advice to risk contact rather than risk stalking is spot on. A guy who can deal with the results gains experience. And a guy that can't deal with the results, likely gives his intended that feedback, whether he wants to or not, to her benefit.

But I also want to tie anonymous's observation to TLPs other post today - sometimes people _are_ taking action, but unconsciously & ineffectively. So the flip side of "do something" is to be aware of what one is already doing. And do a version of those things in a way that works, for you, and for the people you share the experience with (like, again, from TLP "Figure out what kinds of environments you are good in, think where are the types of women that are right for you, go there.")

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Your failed attempt at sarc... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 5:49 PM | Posted, in reply to David's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Your failed attempt at sarcasm was misplaced my friend. I was not criticizing reading, I was criticizing the act of frequently, on a regular basis, spending long hours reading books at book stores as opposed to purchasing/renting the books and reading them in the privacy of your quiet peaceful home. Reading in a bookstore - and I've done it - is distracting, there's noise and conversation, and I argue people who do it regularly DO IT as a form of social interaction (or, alternatively, are homeless, from broken homes, or are away from home on a trip, and otherwise have no peaceful quiet place to go to read, study, or do their work). They do it to flaunt their middle-upper class status as well, a symbol of how intellectual they are (much like your snarky reply branding yourself as a "reader" and me a philistine, many people go to bookstores and read just to bask in their image as an intellectual cultured person. Starbucks capitalizes off of this ego vulnerability in their consumer base readily with their esoterically named and overpriced concoctions of sugar, fat, and caffeine).

I've been a student, I read (although not as frequently as I should), and I am well familiar with the bookstore scene... it is not conducive to productive work. Sure, it can be done, but not without effort to drown out all the chattering monkey noise and cars and such. People who do this frequently are doing it on purpose - to flaunt their identity, to get some kind of social benefit, to socialize, or alternatively because they don't have a real home for whatever reason, no where peaceful and quiet to go.

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Ugh I hate when that happen... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 5:57 PM | Posted, in reply to Nadia's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Ugh I hate when that happens.

Bus rides are the devil.

Worst is when the person is mentally ill and targets you. I get that a lot... schizophrenic people who decide I am a good target to start talking to and focusing on. Once when I was in my early 20s this crazy kid sat next to me on a city bus and insisted my name was "jenny" and for the entire trip talked about how he knew me and we would go out, etc. He randomly shifted between speaking normally and becoming hostile and vindictive. I was pretty scared and I was too socially retarded to even know what to do. I actually gave him my number as I was not thinking clearly to give him a fake one. Ugh I am a fool. Then the next few weeks he would call all the time and I had to ignore him.

Seriously, crazy people always come after me. If there is a schizophrenic manic on the bus, they're coming at me no problem.

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(sorry posted early)<... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 6:05 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

(sorry posted early)

In addition to my post at 5:40 I would like to say that there is a fine line between normal social behavior (greeting a girl and trying to make a conversation happen and being in tune to cues that she isn't into it)... vs creepy behavior (staring, following, leering, or insisting on conversing even when she is trying to ignore you).

Like, an example of creepy behavior: I went to staples and there was this guy on line. He was staring at me. He said nothing, just staring like a psychotic, like a fucking rapist.

I left the store and went to another store, still creeped out. He shows up. I did not notice him following me at all, which made it more scary. Here's this weirdo pretending to shop for knicknacks and fake flowers, clearly staring at me every second he thinks I can't see him. That is fucking creepy.

This scenario ended with me running away and going into the bathroom to hide for like 10 minutes, and contemplating whether or not I should call someone I know to let them know where I was in case I should go missing.

When I eventually came out, he was gone. I spent the rest of the day freaked out he was stalking me (as I was so oblivious to him following me in the store, perhaps he was STILL following me and I had no idea of it?)

No part of that behavior was normal. It was creepy and grossly socially inappropriate.

But if the guy had just said "hi how are you what are your interests blah blah blah" that would have been normal and appropriate.

I don't think women brand guys as creeps if they try to talk to them... you're only a creep if you treat the woman as an object you are hunting, without any semblance of awareness or respect for what she is thinking saying or feeling.

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> I also fail to see the pr... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 6:48 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by HedgeMage: | Reply

> I also fail to see the problem with trying to talk to a girl in a
> bookstore, assume you are normal about it and try to strike up
> a conversation sans leering or inappropriate suggestions.

But he didn't try to talk to her, there was no conversation. Just that creepy, conspicuous nearness of a stranger who wants her to set aside having a personality or independent thought of any kind and conform to his fantasy.

> A bookstore is a good place to meet someone who may have common
> interests.

"Hi, it's not often I meet a woman who reads The Art of Computer Programming, can I buy you a muffin and find out how you shoot yourself in the foot?" would get my attention.

The guy who sits three feet from me and fidgets in a very loud imitation of nonchalance is just creepy.

> I also disagree with alone that this guy (and this girl) where
> even aware of each other. Maybe they were, maybe they
> weren't. I don't think every guy who sits at a nearby table is
> automatically thinking about me, unless it is obvious he is
> (glancing at me and such).

I got a different picture from Alone's description. As I said earlier, there is a difference between a guy who is "just there", and one who fidgets loudly, pretends to read something he's paying no attention to, and glances when he thinks I'm not looking.

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I can imagine that you're g... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 6:51 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by popo: | Reply

I can imagine that you're going to have difficulty with your account. Somebody is going to ask if the creep was attractive and then somebody else will post that doghouse diaries comic and it'll turn back into that tired old nice guys versus hot guys thing.

First principals, bitches. If you're reading this, it's for you.

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I really enjoy your posts o... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 8:00 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I really enjoy your posts on male-female dating interactions.

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Except you're flat wrong he... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 8:02 PM | Posted, in reply to jj's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Except you're flat wrong here. That Pickup stuff gives the exact same advice Alone does.

"What he should do, if this is the suicide mission he wants, is to walk up to her early on, "hi..." and do his audition."

They call that the "three second rule." Sadly, our poor hoverer would actually be improved by following it and be less annoying to everyone else by failing quickly, since with or without it he's the type try in the first place.

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LOL, popo...you covered eve... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 9:00 PM | Posted, in reply to popo's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

LOL, popo...you covered everything except the inevitable invocation of Godwin's Law. ;)

That said, I took something completely different from Anonymous's account: how do some women live like this? I mean, I know a lot *do*, but I can't identify with it in any way.

Yes, I'd be irritated by the creepy guy staring at me. I'd know where he was and what he was doing at all times. I'd know my options for flight or cover. I know better than to respond by going to an isolated location where he has the opportunity to get me alone. That's how you get 15 minutes of postmortem fame as the "unidentified corpse found in shopping center bathroom".

Note that I said I'd be *irritated* by the creepy guy, not *freaked out*. I can't identify with the women who wander around hoping the bad guys of the world won't want to hurt them, without any idea of what to do if they became a target. Perhaps it's the martial artist in me, but I prefer not to leave it all up to the bad guys.

I don't think I'm invincible -- no one is -- but I do what I can to tip things in my own favor, rather than relinquishing my life to hope and chance.

BTW, popo, this is the point where I get accused of "blaming the victim". Then people start speculating about my hating men due to some childhood trauma. That's usually followed by accusations of violent tendencies, then the premise that anyone who learns self defense is "living in fear". Any counter made by those in favor of self-defense is shouted down by claims of moral superiority by those who are ready victims. Eventually, crazy paramilitary communes in Montana and the Brady bunch are somehow deputized into the argument and all reason is lost.

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The description of the guy ... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 10:46 PM | Posted, in reply to HedgeMage's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

The description of the guy is not the same description alone is making. Alone describes a guy simply sitting at a table next to a girl. At no point does he glance at her or make vocal noises indication attraction/awareness/nervousness. He's just sitting there reading as far as we know, alone never said the guy did anything else.

You are describing a creepy guy. You are describing a guy in the same spectrum as the staples stalker example I gave. When a guy sits next to you, makes noises in a frustrated attempt to express himself, and keeps glancing at you and never once acting on it, that's fucking creepy I totally agree.

Big, big difference.

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"That said, I took somethin... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 11:01 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

"That said, I took something completely different from Anonymous's account: how do some women live like this? I mean, I know a lot *do*, but I can't identify with it in any way."

Lady I don't know if you've been in that situation or not, but I suspect your WoMyN pOWeR would fly right out the window if you have. WHen there is a guy staring at you with that creepy fucking rapist stare, following you around, stalking you for a half hour, this goes above and beyond "annoying guy looking at you" which is ever common, and it become "this fucker might actually be a predator and i need to think of some kind of plan". Judo-chopping him in the groin is probably not going to work if you are 115 pounds and 5'5 and are well aware you are physically weak. I don't know how big you are, but depending on your physical strength is fucking ridiculous. Women are small and weaker than men, and attempting to beat attackers up is really not the best plan even if you are a strong person.

I am irritated when guys leer at me from cars. I am irritated when I get whistled at on the street. It is entirely different when a guy behaves the way I described, that is not irritating that is scary because I do not know if he is a psychopath or not and he is presently showing signs of being one.

I am not the sort of girl that runs in a parking lot to her car and is afraid to go out at night. I love to go for long walks at 2 or 3 or 4 in the morning in the park, around my neighborhood (note: yes this may be stupid). However, I am a sane human being and if someone is demonstrating big time signs that they are a predator and have little respect for boundaries, that is going to make me scared and make me try to defend myself and think of a plan (like hiding and calling people I know).

Women like you piss me off. You like to pretend you are as strong as men are, and you criticize women for rational fear, when in reality if you were in that situation I highly suspect you would also be afraid and freaked out and try to get away. I am NOT going to try to beat a guy up who tries to attack me. I'm going to try to run the fuck away to a place where people are and call for help. What a load of BS you're selling. I would love to see how it would turn out if you actually did try your ninja skills on a 6 foot 200 pound man. Go for it, I hope I don't hear about you on the news.

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I was sitting in the hallwa... (Below threshold)

October 22, 2010 11:53 PM | Posted by rox: | Reply

I was sitting in the hallway before chemistry lab and this kid I had never spoken to walks up to me. It's a bit awkward as I'm sitting on the floor so he kind of squats down and says as if he's been reciting this a long time, "Hi, I'm Ray" (rather like a sales person) offers hand. "Whats your name" I say my name. Okay Ray, what's up?

"Can I take a look at your calculator, I see that's a TI-82"

Sexy.

But seriously guys, in general, want sex. It's not about how attractive you are or I wouldn't have had all those wild flings of the past. I've noticed that women who weigh 230 pounds will lose 60 pounds and suddenly start getting asked out all the time. I've known women who gain ten pounds and now they weigh 145 and "no one will go out with them" because they're too fat.

Obviously, it's not about the fat, otherwise 145 girl would get guys after her way more than 170 girl.

Guys trying to have sex with you doesn't tell you that you're attractive. It tell you that guys are horny as mo' fos.

If Calculator Guy hadn't disappeared immediately on my mentioning son's father I would have seriously thought he had been lusting after my TI-82 and finally figured out a way to get his hands on it.

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I don't think anyone said g... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 12:55 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I don't think anyone said guys trying to have sex with you means you are attractive, did they? It's generally true, though, that attractive women get more attention than unattractive women do.

The girl who gained 10 pounds is probably seeking a higher quality man than the 230 pound girl who lost 60 pounds. I"m sure confidence figures in... a girl who goes from 230 to 170 probably feels really sexy now and looks good to men (170 pounds might not necessarily be obese, it might be thick if she is normal height and pear/hour glass shaped). On the other hand, a girl who is used to being skinny and sexy who gains 10 pounds will feel like a fatty at 145 and dress in baggy sweats . Plus the guys she is chasing around are probably the sort who like super thin women (narcissists and high status men who go for the thin well kept status symbol). It is entirely possible for two girls at very different weights to accurately perceive their dating potential as changed in contradictory ways.

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Lay off the sartre.... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 1:06 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Lay off the sartre.

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Why is it that we, i... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 3:48 AM | Posted by anon: | Reply


Why is it that we, in this society, more frequently label men's behaviours with the word "creepy"?

Seriously, there are like a million more ways for a man to be "creepy" towards a woman, than for a woman to be it towards a man.

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Because the male gender is ... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 4:50 AM | Posted, in reply to anon's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Because the male gender is over sexed, physically stronger than women, and is noted to be more violent and sociopathic in general (see: child rapists, serial killers, killers/violent criminals in general)

When women start being ridiculously obsessed with porn and wanting to have sex with every young man they see, when women are on average twice as big as men, and when women start committing all the violent/sexual crimes, then on that day it will likely be true that women are noted to be "creepy" at times.

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Google doghouse creep... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 7:28 AM | Posted, in reply to anon's comment, by popo: | Reply

Google doghouse creep

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So now I even have to make ... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 8:47 AM | Posted by someone: | Reply

So now I even have to make sure there is at least one table separating me and any female, because otherwise it's sexual harassment. What if it's the only empty table? Do I have to leave? Ask permission? Sit on the floor?

Feminism sure is great!

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The war on straw continues.... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 9:32 AM | Posted, in reply to someone's comment, by popo: | Reply

The war on straw continues...

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This is absurd.I'm... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 9:40 AM | Posted by Wino: | Reply

This is absurd.

I'm Ukrainian, raised in Germany and the USA; now living between London, Moscow, Beijing & Shanghai for business - and the older I get, the more fascinating it becomes to observe just how completely delusional and self-absorbed people are in Anglo-American society. Are you all actually so obtuse that you are unable to see the distinction between a rapist - yes, an ACTUAL RAPIST, the likes of which I doubt you've ever met in an American suburb - and some guy who can't even find the courage to chat up some girl in a bookstore? Are you aware of just how tiny the number of rapists is, relative to the general population? And, if you are a woman, do you realize that unless you carry a gun, there generally isn't much you can do about someone who genuinely has decided to rape you if he's 1.5x your size and no one else is around? Not a very nice thought, but accurate nonetheless.

In Anglo-American society, everything is a hidden danger; a crisis lurking in the shadows over which YOU. MUST. EXERCISE. CONTROL. You can't do anything about a REAL rapist, but hey, you sure can shut down some shy random dude in a bookstore! Hurrah for you, and for your artificial sense of security. Oh look, now Sam's Club have Mace in 64oz fire-extinguisher-sized jugs! Better pick one up for the garage, just in case the lawn maintenance guy gets rowdy. Meanwhile, both of you - yes, both men and women - are increasingly isolated from society in general. You're not able to just have a genuine conversation with a stranger and enjoy yourselves without expectations; not able to form genuine friendships across genders, etc. No, he's either The One or a rapist. Brilliant.

FWIW, in all the former Soviet Union countries, it is totally normal to flag down any car on the road and pay the driver a small sum to take you where you want to go; totally normal to share food/conversation/vodka with the people in your train compartment; totally normal to strike up conversations with random people in public places; totally normal to argue at length with police over traffic tickets without worrying whether you'll be the next Rodney King. I met my (Czech) girlfriend in the customs line at the airport, for example. And somehow, we manage to get all of these things accomplished here without raping each other. In fact, here's a neat piece of trivia: Moscow has lower rates of both rape and murder than does Phoenix, AZ - and Phoenix is halfway populated by people too old to even fuck in the first place.

In case you still haven't figured it out, the problem isn't specifically men or women; it's that Americans are completely incapable of empathizing with other people. You lose - ALL of you.

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someone, no it's just an in... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 10:06 AM | Posted, in reply to someone's comment, by AnAnon: | Reply

someone, no it's just an ineffective way to pick up girls and can lead to random bloggers observing you like a specimen and using you as an example of narcissism - none of this has anything to do with feminism really. I could be wrong here but when Alone discusses objectification it seems more to be in relation to his overarching theme of disordered narcissism (and the media). The kind of objectification in the media that feminists in the 70s and 80s talked about is increasingly happening to all of us (and we're all increasingly doing to ourselves and each other), including men. Don't get mad at women because we're not like the media sells men as a fantasy, get angry at the media for manipulating you and fucking up your ability to enjoy and navigate reality (and get laid or have a relationship). Same goes for women who get angry that life and men aren't like in the movies or advertisements.

If you sit at the table next to a girl you find pretty and don't ogle or made unwanted advances towards anyone and or act like a stalker, you'll be fine.

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I cannot imagine how this i... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 10:22 AM | Posted, in reply to AnAnon's comment, by someone: | Reply

I cannot imagine how this idea could have originated from anything other than feminism. It's classic feminist thinking.

According to Alone's description of the events, nobody was ogling, making unwanted advances or acting like a stalker. Absolutely nothing whatsoever was happening. It was all in his head.

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Someone - Ah, so you have a... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 11:27 AM | Posted by AnAnon: | Reply

Someone - Ah, so you have an imaginary idea of feminism that is defined by what you are capable of imagining? And it's all about how you're being restricted and controlled by this imaginary feminist overlord? I see, so feminism as you imagine it is all about your desires and some grand conspiracy to cockblock you or make you conform to rules to get laid? Seems to me that men actually make the most money exploiting men by selling them bogus "rules".

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I live in America and have ... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 12:02 PM | Posted, in reply to Wino's comment, by George: | Reply

I live in America and have never lived anywhere else, but for years I have been trying to find the words to say exactly what you did in your comment.

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I've always kind of felt th... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 12:06 PM | Posted by Steve: | Reply

I've always kind of felt that people who are reading, especially for extended periods of time in coffee shops or bookstores are at least halfway full of shit. (Im sure there are exceptions , like people on their lunch hour and such.

Its fairly obvious that the reading is secondary to being in the bookstore or the coffee shop. Whereas if I am reading in bed or in my den, the reading is primary and the environment secondary.

I agree with Anonymous at 5:49. Its a way of trying to project an image of who you want to be perceived as in a public environment, with the secondary advantage of having the book as a shield, so you can deny your true intentions and make anyone honest about the fact that they are there for the social atmosphere feel like shit for interrupting you from your "reading".

The book is a prop to hide behind for folks who want it both ways. The horn rimmed glasses are usually bullshit too.

I'm so sick of posers.

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Wino....you are spot on....... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 12:34 PM | Posted by Steve: | Reply

Wino....you are spot on.....American's have become hyper-conscious of their actions and the actions of everyone around them. Nothing is face value, every interaction has a hidden agenda or nefarious subtext, and the hidden agenda or subtext is almost always interpreted by the recipient in accordance with how they want to write their own internal script.

So if a guy you don't find attractive is looking at you, he is a psycho or a rapist, but if he is cute than he's a shy hottie reaching out to you to connect on a deeper level. You get to decide whether your life is a thriller or a romantic comedy...reality be damned.

The same exact actions are narrated totally differently based on the desirability of the actor in question and which interpretation best massages the "victims" ego.

I blame the movies for this confusion. Nobody knows whats appropriate or inappropriate anymore without a laughtrack or soundtrack in the background.

Is that guy holding up a boombox outside my window a stalker, should I call the police and have him arrested? Or is it a charming display of affection by a future solumate?

Fuck...who knows, depends if you dig him or not, because its all about you, you're the star, you write the script, everyone else is just a supporting actor in your movie, so you decide.


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"Ah, so you have an imagina... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 1:26 PM | Posted, in reply to AnAnon's comment, by someone: | Reply

"Ah, so you have an imaginary idea of feminism that is defined by what you are capable of imagining?"

I have an accurate idea of feminism.

"And it's all about how you're being restricted and controlled by this imaginary feminist overlord?"

Feminists may believe in imaginary overlords (e.g. the patriarchy), but I don't. Feminists and feminist organizations -- which are everywhere -- don't even attempt to disguise their desire to control what (white/straight) men think, say and do.

"I see, so feminism as you imagine it is all about your desires and some grand conspiracy to cockblock you or make you conform to rules to get laid?"

It's about controlling (white/straight) men in various inane ways like declaring that sitting near a woman in a public place is some kind of harrassment.

Cockblocking and getting laid are of no consequence to me since I don't have a sex life.

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Wino - I agree with the who... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 2:27 PM | Posted, in reply to Wino's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Wino - I agree with the whole isolation in anglo-american society thing. I also agree with the irrational self centered fear of americans... but you are off base about everything else.

No one said the dude in the bookstore was a rapist. I am the anon who gave the example of the guy who followed me for a half hour, I called that individual a potential rapist but that is because he was behaving like one. He was acting like a sociopath staring and following.

I actually defended the kid in the bookstore, arguing that he may not have even noticed the girl (1) and that it is appropriate and not creepy to try to pick up a girl in a bookstore (2) and if you are in a bookstore you're doing it for ego/social reasons anyway and should not expect total peace and quiet in a public place (3)

Regarding how "normal" it is to hitch hike in russia and soviet union, I would point out the quality of life for women in those countries is disgusting, women are often raped by men and treated like crap. Women in the soviet union were treated like animals compared to women in western society. I'll never forget watching a documentary on russian men and their attitudes toward women when I was a child. All I remember thinking was "how can this be possible" and "I'm fucking glad I live in america".

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Feminism is not the reason ... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 2:31 PM | Posted, in reply to someone's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Feminism is not the reason alone projected a sexual situation... most likely repressed sexual desire and frustation for the young girl is the reason. Alone's attraction lead him to project it on to the guy at the table, even though the guy at the table didn't show any signs at all of noticing the girl.
I doubt a woman would have perceived the situation the same way alone did (and we see women in this blog post doing the same thing, for example hedgemage assumed the guy was fidging and being noisy and glancing at her ...when alone actually said the guy did nothing but stare at his reading... people are projecting their own feelings and experiences wildly here).

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"I cannot imagine how this ... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 2:55 PM | Posted, in reply to someone's comment, by ThePedanticGooFromSpace: | Reply

"I cannot imagine how this idea could have originated from anything other than feminism. It's classic feminist thinking."

Well, let me explain something then: the kind of objectification that AnAnon is describing is often called "dehumanization," the objectification of a person, to distinguish it from "reification," the objectification of an idea.

Look into dehumanization and you'll see it's used all over the place to describe human behavior in sociological, anthropological, and historical descriptions of political and cultural conflicts of every type. Feminism is just one grouping of cultural theories that uses this idea. The idea itself is much older than that.

Since AnAnon's comment covers men and women, it's apparent that it could speak of dehumanization in the more general sense, rather than the specific sense that would be of interest to feminist theory. On the other hand, it does discuss gender issues, so I can't really fault you for thinking the comment was meant from a feminist perspective.

The more important point here is that there is an alternative interpretation, where you said there couldn't possible be one.

"Cockblocking and getting laid are of no consequence to me since I don't have a sex life."

That's exactly why they're of consequence to you.

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You turds know that the man... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 3:39 PM | Posted by I'm Not A Rapist, I'm a Girl: | Reply

You turds know that the man in the bookstore isn't a real rapist, nor does Alone think he's a rapist? Nor does the woman think he's a rapist? The point is that that guy is NOT a rapist, nor aggressive, nor even assertive (with women), and, knowing this, he should try to meet women in a different manner than sitting in a bookstore and waiting for her to send him some sort of obvious signal, like she'll fold up a note and drop it in his lap?

You guys who are blaming this on the woman being too overcautious or stereotyping male threats don't seem to misunderstand that the reason she isn't noticing him is because she isn't attracted to him. He should pick that up (by virtue of her not noticing him) and move on. Instead, he "bends reality to his will" as Alone calls it, trying to ESP her over to him.

The Russian guy who met his GF in the customs line makes my point inadvertently. He met her there because that's natural. There's no posing, no scoping, no games, just a chance encounter that worked out. You have to make yourself open to such encounters but not be looking for such encounters. The more you force it, the more you want it, the less real it is.

That said, my guess is Alone was pissed because HE was stalking her. Reversal ZING!

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"That's exactly why they're... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 3:44 PM | Posted, in reply to ThePedanticGooFromSpace's comment, by someone: | Reply

"That's exactly why they're of consequence to you."

The same way the rules of football are of consequence to a person who doesn't play or watch it?

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I am from Uruguay and I thi... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 3:59 PM | Posted by customs: | Reply

I am from Uruguay and I think Americans are fcked in the head as well, except for my host family. For example, I bet 89% of the Americans that are reading my comment right now instantly thought, in the very back of their minds, that they were more educated and sophisticated than I when they read that I hail from the country called Uruguay. American opinion of me is not very high because Uruguay is not a rich or powerful country and fame escapes our citizens. If, I instead had said that I hailed from the country of Norway, your opinion of me would instantly jump. You would think that I am peaceful and intelligent, tall and attractive, and that I enjoy Nordic sports and you would relish the chance to become friends with me.

Fck all of you. Can any of you speak another language? With fluency? No. Yet I can and I hail from Uruguay. I bet you couldn't even locate my country on a map if someone came up to you while you were reading a horrible american novel by Jonathan Franzen in the bookstore and handed you a world map and said "Can you locate the country of Uruguay?" I bet you would start 'shaking in your boots.' Did I use that phrase correctly?

Good day.

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Yeah, American must be fuck... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 4:39 PM | Posted by Steve: | Reply

Yeah, American must be fucked in the head if they don't cream their pants when they hear you are from Uruguay.

And I wouldn't brag so much about speaking two languages, many readers of this blog are not from English speaking countries.

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I'm more interested in what... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 4:56 PM | Posted, in reply to Steve's comment, by popo: | Reply

I'm more interested in what the hell "nordic sports" are...

Anyway, patriotism was invented in 1850.

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customs,What are y... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 5:41 PM | Posted, in reply to customs's comment, by TheUnderwearBandit: | Reply

customs,

What are you talking about? What relevance does anything you said have to do with the discussion at hand?

American opinion of me is not very high because Uruguay is not a rich or powerful country and fame escapes our citizens.

Honestly dude, most American's have no opinion of you. But that is the problem isn't it? Its all about you, and how people perceive you. Well at least you are reading the right blog!

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Fiend Folio? Has Alone bee... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 8:32 PM | Posted by Knives: | Reply

Fiend Folio? Has Alone been reading the Something Awful "WTF D&D?!" articles?

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Wow, a lot of responses her... (Below threshold)

October 23, 2010 9:41 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Wow, a lot of responses here. I guess everyone enjoys reading about this stuff, not just me.

1. My wife has an oblivious quality that I didn't know existed. I remember that shortly after we were married I thought she was ignoring me when she was on the phone and I was trying to get her attention. Over the years and seeing her in lots of situations, I have realized that she actually tends to "hyperfocus" and is unable to discern if something else is going on around her (like our 2 year old trying to get her attention when she is on the phone with her mom). I tried googling about hyperfocus but didn't find too much. Anyone know anything about this phenomenon?

2. Maybe the dude is trying this futile attempt because he realizes he doesn't have a shot in hell, so why bother to talk to her? I remember giving girls the eye, safe in my knowledge that they would never reciprocate so I didn't have to worry that I would be faced trying to chat them up.

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It is patently obvious Alon... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 12:15 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

It is patently obvious Alone had the hots for the young girl, and is having an old man latent mid life crisis about it. He projects his frustration on the boy, who was sitting there doing nothing.

Evidence of his attraction is when he said "the girl wants to be Alone".

Hedgemage then projects her own experiences as a woman onto this girl, erroneously believing the guy was being a creeper when in reality he was just sitting there reading a book as far as any of us know. And I still don't get why hedgemage (or any woman) thinks it is "creepy" if a guy tries to meet you in a bookstore. Bookstores are social scenes. If you think you are in a private place in a bookstore you need to check your social adjustment because there are tons of people around. If you want to be alone, go to your house.

For all we know, there was no sexual tension at all ... the only confirmed sexual tension is between alone and this 20 something girl, which he projects onto the kid.

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Uh sorry for posting that a... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 12:44 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Uh sorry for posting that again, I posted it earlier (my theory that alone was hot for the girl and sublimated his frustration over his age/inability to approach her onto the kid sitting there doing nothing at all to indicate awareness of her).

Anyway.

I wanted to say re: the idea guys are trying to sell that women arbitrarily decide who is creepy and who is a shy hottie who needs encouragement... thats bullshit.

The difference between a potential rapist creeper and a "shy hottie" is this very important fundamental aspect: RESPECT for social boundaries, RESPECT for the girl's feelings and thoughts and desires. A "shy boy" regardless of whether or not he is attractive in no way defiles a woman's boundaries. He may glance at her to indicate interest, but he doesn't stare. That means to say, if you turn your head away from him, you will not feel and see a HARD STARE burning holes in the back of your head (or other parts, heh). He will not follow her around. If she gets up and leaves, he won't watch where she is going and then show up later, pretending not to be there.
A "shy guy" does not behave like a fucking hunter, or a kid in a candy store who is debating whether or not they should try to steal the candy when the store clerk turns around. Creepers are fixated on their feelings and their desires and their wants and their entire internal dialogue is self oriented. It's very distinct and has nothing to do with appearance. It has to do with a sociopathic autistic masculine-like alienation from others feelings and inner world... a person who meanders about life looking at others as talking pieces of meat who are either to be used or discarded as they see fit.

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I love how some of the wome... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 1:01 AM | Posted, in reply to customs's comment, by anoinimous: | Reply

I love how some of the women on here, criticizing the narcissistic male mental state, fail to realize their own narcissism. Now, before this post gets -50, notice I said some, not "most" or "all". And obviously, there is equal or more narcissism coming from (some of) the dudes, but I don't think that needs to be spelled out.

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Just to make it clear, I am... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 1:10 AM | Posted by anoinimous: | Reply

Just to make it clear, I am NOT referring to Anon who was followed from store to store by that weirdo.

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Today , ironically, I have ... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 2:09 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Today , ironically, I have received powerful validation that my natural female "creepy radar" is in fact useful and often accurate.

There is this guy I've known for over a year. He is fucking creepy. He sets that creepy radar on blast. He never did anything sexually inappropriate (stare, ogle) but he just sends the creepy vibes big time. He stalks about in shadows, he is completely oblivious to everyone's needs but his own. He thinks nothing of trampling over rules and doesn't respect anyone or anything if he can get away with it... yet he is ultimately a coward, conforms to authority and will rapidly back down if confronted.

Big time creep.

Turns out this guy is on a sexual preditor list for raping a child.

Creepy radar 1, politically correct butthurt males 0.


Sorry. I KNOW what makes a guy creepy, and I"m not about to be like "oh, that's not fair he might actually not be a creep!" just because it hurts your feelings.

The most important quality in a creeper is the tendency to skulk and stalk. They sorta follow you about, not overtly, but they are AWARE of where you are and they appear to be following you. They come after you. It's fucking creepy. I know many guys like this. They are all creepy and I would not put attempted rape above any of them.

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Well...I like sitting in Ba... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 2:45 AM | Posted by G: | Reply

Well...I like sitting in Barnes and Noble, in a nice leather chair, sipping a Starbucks Americano and reading bits of this and that - whatever I choose from thousands of books - I even buy one now and then; and if beauty passes or sits by, I can admire discreetly and return to enjoying the quiet comforts of books and coffee.

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I think most guys are quick... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 3:45 AM | Posted by David: | Reply

I think most guys are quickly aware of an attractive girl who is in their vicinity. No matter his social or relationship status he wants to look at her, approach her, interact and if possible meet her. If this guy is straight we can assume he noticed the attractive girl at the next table and desired to interact with her.

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I swear to god half of the ... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 7:00 AM | Posted by popo: | Reply

I swear to god half of the posts here are stealth parodies...

"Turns out this guy is on a sexual preditor list for raping a child."

You say this like it has anything to do with the discussion... This post is about young guys who haven't figured out how to talk to girls yet, not child molesters you associate with.

"It's fucking creepy. I know many guys like this. They are all creepy and I would not put attempted rape above any of them."

You know many guys like this?
You know many convicted child molesters?
You wouldn't put attempted rape above any of the convicted child molesters you associate with?

Do you need somebody to explain to you what is wrong with that?

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1.) "If you're reading it, ... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 9:11 AM | Posted by DCF: | Reply

1.) "If you're reading it, it's for you"... if you're reading this article, you're probably an over-thinker like the rest of us. Cold approaches in bookstores = not your forte.

2.) I think the girl may have been most nervous because there was a misanthropic rummy staring at her and the guy next to her, analyzing like a mad man :)

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Or maybe the guy was in a r... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 9:26 AM | Posted, in reply to David's comment, by someone: | Reply

Or maybe the guy was in a relationship, or maybe he didn't think the woman was especially attractive, or maybe he wasn't feeling like getting involved with anyone, or...

I have no desire to "interact" with random attractive(ish) women I see out there.

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customs - I think you neede... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 11:06 AM | Posted, in reply to customs's comment, by AnAnon: | Reply

customs - I think you needed to spell out "Americans are racist" a bit more clearly - you're just confusing all the Americans who don't believe they're racist and in the American MythTM (which can be adopted as a large part of identity). Part of the American Myth is that everyone is equal, you bring up a (not necessarily unhealthy) narcissistic need for basic respect and to be seen for who you are and you're challenging part of their own identity. You do know it has nothing to do with nationality and everything to do with colour and class/wealth don't you? Education doesn't indicate class to most people in the US (except to those who actually are from the upper classes), grandiose displays of bling do.

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DFC - Thanks for making me ... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 11:17 AM | Posted, in reply to DCF's comment, by AnAnon: | Reply

DFC - Thanks for making me laugh out loud with point 2!

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Men are more often pegged a... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 2:10 PM | Posted, in reply to anon's comment, by HedgeMage: | Reply

Men are more often pegged as "creepy" because while it's considered acceptable for women to think men or women are creepy, and it's acceptable for men to think men are creepy, a man describing a woman as creepy faces social stigma. So, we women have half as many people willing to describe the creepy among us as such.

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"Part of the American Myth ... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 2:11 PM | Posted, in reply to AnAnon's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

"Part of the American Myth is that everyone is equal."

This is believed most deeply by those on the Left. If you're not a moonbat, you expect outcome variance, because unless you refuse to acknowledge unpleasant realities, it is obvious that we're not all equal.

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"Well...I like sitting in B... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 2:15 PM | Posted, in reply to G's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

"Well...I like sitting in Barnes and Noble, in a nice leather chair, sipping a Starbucks Americano and reading bits of this and that - whatever I choose from thousands of books - I even buy one now and then; and if beauty passes or sits by, I can admire discreetly and return to enjoying the quiet comforts of books and coffee."

You're like me. Do you go back and forth to the bathroom to jerk off, too? You can either jerk off in the store, or take the memory "to go." Or both. Either way, it seems like we're on the same page.

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> This is absurd.T... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 3:06 PM | Posted, in reply to Wino's comment, by HedgeMage: | Reply

> This is absurd.

These are comments on a blog. *Of course* most of them are absurd.

> Are you all actually so obtuse that you are unable to see the
> distinction between a rapist - yes, an ACTUAL RAPIST, the likes
> of which I doubt you've ever met in an American suburb - and
> some guy who can't even find the courage to chat up some girl
> in a bookstore? Are you aware of just how tiny the number of
> rapists is, relative to the general population?

It used to be true (and I suspect still is true) that the US, especially certain parts of the US have dramatically higher rates of rape than many other countries. For example, I grew up in Cook County, IL in the 1990's and at the time, 1 in 4 women there was raped by age 22. Rapists are *not* rare here, due to a bizarre combination of sexual repression, narcissism, unrealistic social expectations, and a society that stigmatizes those who learn to defend themselves.

The crazy part of the paranoia is the idea that rape is typically committed by a stranger. The vast majority of rapes are committed by family members or significant others. In the US, getting raped in your own home or the home of someone you trust is not unlikely. Getting dragged into an alley and raped is less common.

> And, if you are a woman, do you realize that unless you carry a
> gun, there generally isn't much you can do about someone
> who genuinely has decided to rape you if he's 1.5x your size
> and no one else is around? Not a very nice thought, but
> accurate nonetheless.

This is simply untrue. Skill will trump physical size in any melee confrontation. I've seen young teenage girls barely over 5' hold their own sparring with grown men over 6' tall.

A gun is fine if your rapist announces his intentions from across the room; it's actually not great in melee (up close). That isn't to say I don't carry: I just don't see rape as the most likely scenario for me to draw a firearm.

You may wonder "what if the rapist has a gun?" Guns are ranged weapons: the ONLY reason they are effective in rape scenarios is fear and lack of training on the part of the victim. In close quarters, guns are not particularly effective against a target with even basic martial training due to the ease of disarming the attacker. Granted, the victim won't *always* win, but I'll take "usually" over "never" any day, and that is the difference that martial arts study can make. Even basic self-defense training can take one's odds from "never" to "sometimes".

> In Anglo-American society, everything is a hidden danger; a
> crisis lurking in the shadows over which YOU. MUST.
> EXERCISE. CONTROL.

Just the opposite: American women (and often men) are taught that they cannot exercise control (exactly the attitude you are advocating) over dangerous situations: THAT is the source of the pathological level of fear so many Americans exhibit.

As someone who feels capable of avoiding most dangerous situations, and dealing with most confrontations, I simply don't feel fearful. Unfortunately, there is still stigma attached to self-defense, let alone actual martial arts, training in many parts of the US.

> You can't do anything about a REAL rapist,

This is simply not true. I've defended myself from a potential rapist who had a serious size and strength advantage over me. Additionally, when there was a string of rapes on my college campus I taught rudimentary self-defense to some of the girls in my dorm, two of whom stopped attempted rapes that year.

> but hey, you sure can shut down some shy random dude in a
> bookstore!

Stop erecting straw men. No one suggested that the guy in the bookstore was a rapist, simply that he was irritating and unlikely to attract the woman he was trying to attract.

> Meanwhile, both of you - yes, both men and women - are
> increasingly isolated from society in general. You're not able to
> just have a genuine conversation with a stranger and enjoy
> yourselves without expectations; not able to form genuine
> friendships across genders, etc. No, he's either The One or a
> rapist. Brilliant.

I see this attitude among people outside the martial arts community. I have never seen in from anyone who practices martial arts. There's an aspect of learned helplessness here: it's not so much the idea that "everyone is out to get me" but the idea that "someone out there might be dangerous and I, as a mere mortal, cannot do anything to make myself a less easy target, identify threats, or defend myself".

I've made some of my best friends standing in line at the grocery store, walking around my neighborhood, and so on.

> FWIW, in all the former Soviet Union countries, it is totally
> normal to flag down any car on the road and pay the driver a
> small sum to take you where you want to go;

This I wouldn't do in the US: there is a *huge* social stigma in the US attached to hitchhiking or picking up hitchhikers, so the group that do is self-selected to not be very nice people for the most part. Would it be different without that social stigma? Possibly, but it's not, so I won't be hitchhiking cross-country any time soon.

> totally normal to share food/conversation/vodka with the
> people in your train compartment; totally normal to strike up conversations with random people in public places;

I still do this, and so do all the people I've met doing it. :)

> totally normal to argue at length with police over traffic
> tickets without worrying whether you'll be the next Rodney
> King.

This isn't a common occurrence in the US -- we punish it too severely. More common is police getting annoyed and throwing you in prison on trumped-up charges of "resisting arrest", overuse of paramilitary police tactics ("no knock" warrants, etc), and so on. These things are still seen as warranted by many police departments, especially in urban centers.

> Moscow has lower rates of both rape and murder than does
> Phoenix, AZ

This wouldn't surprise me in the least. I talked about some of the causes above.

> In case you still haven't figured it out, the problem
> isn't specifically men or women; it's that Americans are
> completely incapable of empathizing with other people.
> You lose - ALL of you.

I disagree -- most Americans empathize just fine. The problem, as I stated earlier in this post, is a combination of sexual repression, narcissism, unrealistic social expectations, and a society that stigmatizes those who learn to defend themselves.

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Re: your points:1)... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 3:09 PM | Posted, in reply to DCF's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Re: your points:

1) No, I'm the woman who gets stared at by creepy guys pretending nonchalance. :/

2) ROFL

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"Such women have the greate... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 4:51 PM | Posted by It's a trap: | Reply

"Such women have the greatest fascination for men, not only for aesthetic reasons [...] but also because of a combination of interesting psychological factors. For it seems very evident that another person's narcissism has a great attraction for those who have renounced /part/ of their own narcissism and are in search of object-love." (S. Freud, 1914)

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> Lady I don't know if you'... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 4:52 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

> Lady I don't know if you've been in that situation or not, but I
> suspect your WoMyN pOWeR would fly right out the window if
> you have.

Being followed by a creepy, staring guy should not be a traumatic event -- that's my point! I've been in that very situation, and worse. My confidence and ability to think strategically were not effected.

I resent your implication that being a martial artist makes me part of some extremist so-called feminist movement that I don't even particularly understand (or want to).

> WHen there is a guy staring at you with that creepy
> fucking rapist stare, following you around, stalking you for a
> half hour, this goes above and beyond "annoying guy looking
> at you" which is ever common, and it become "this fucker
> might actually be a predator and i need to think of some kind
> of plan".

Sure, following someone is more persistent (and therefor more worrisome) than sitting down next to him/her and trying to get noticed in a creepy way. It's also nowhere near proof that the gentleman in question was dangerous. Perhaps he just moved on to the next store around the same time you did, and had an expression you found odd? You'll never know.

My point was that you *didn't* make a plan -- you followed your fear into a remote, isolated part of the store where (if he did mean you harm) you became a much easier target. This is the part I just don't get: why don't people think? Why do they revert to fear instead of understanding the factors at work and making choices that make them safer?

> Judo-chopping him in the groin is probably not going to work
> if you are 115 pounds and 5'5 and are well aware you are
> physically weak. I don't know how big you are, but depending
> on your physical strength is fucking ridiculous. Women are
> small and weaker than men, and attempting to beat attackers
> up is really not the best plan even if you are a strong person.

I never suggested that response, nor would any martial artist, or anyone trained in even the most basic skills of self-defense. You suggested it because you don't understand basic tactics, let alone martial arts, and THAT is the problem.

Skill *always* trumps size and strength. I've sparred with men much larger than me and won. I've also disarmed and overcome a larger, stronger opponent in a real-life confrontation. More importantly, my skill in physical combat is irrelevant to this case because I highly doubt a physical altercation would have resulted. I'd probably just have said "excuse me?" to him. It's very non-confrontational, and his response would give me information on whether I should consider him a threat.

> It is entirely different when a guy behaves the way I described,
> that is not irritating that is scary because I do not know if he is
> a psychopath or not and he is presently showing signs of being
> one.

I understand that you found that situation frightening. I also understand that that fear led you to a bad decision (hiding in the bathroom) that, if the guy were a violent nutjob, could have cost you your life. This is what I was talking about when I said that I don't know how women live like this.

I wouldn't feel afraid of a guy who is keeping his distance, no matter how creepy his stare was or how far he followed me. I'd recognize him as a potential threat, and make a logical choice about how to proceed, instead of a blind, fear-based reaction. My choice is going to be one that promotes my survival, not one that puts me at greater risk.

It is the absence of logic, and the absence of enough knowledge to improve your chances of survival in even a basic way (like staying in populated areas), that I find worrisome, because they are all too common in our society.

> I am a sane human being and if someone is demonstrating big
> time signs that they are a predator and have little respect for
> boundaries, that is going to make me scared and make me try
> to defend myself and think of a plan (like hiding and calling
> people I know).

So far, the man had only demonstrated persistence and a big time lack of social skills. Your plan would have gotten you killed if he were looking for an opportunity to attack you. You didn't try to defend yourself -- you specifically said that you wanted to call friends so they would know where you had disappeared from if you didn't turn up. That's about aiding the investigation that happens after you are killed or kidnapped. Your thinking there demonstrates the same sense of futility that you have espoused in your posts: you took it for granted that any man who wanted to could hurt you, and that you had no chance to try to prevent it.

> Women like you piss me off.

People (men and women alike) who put their safety entirely in the hands of the Bad Guys confuse me. I'm not sure how this is supposed to be a survivable strategy.

> You like to pretend you are as strong as men are,

I never said any such thing, actually. There are men who are physically stronger than me, as well as some who are physically weaker. None of this requires me to be psychologically weaker.

> and you criticize women for rational fear,

I never criticize rational fear. I specifically criticized blind fear, fear that prevents one from acting rationally. It's not good for your survival.

> when in reality if you were in that situation I highly suspect
> you would also be afraid and freaked out and try to get away.

You suspect wrong. I would be concerned at that point, but not afraid, let alone controlled by blind fear. I know (because I've taken the time to learn) that going from a populated store to an isolated bathroom is not "getting away", it's making myself a better target.

I have been physically assaulted -- I came out on top because, though afraid, I never succumbed to blind fear. I kept my senses and used what I knew about how to protect myself (or others). That isn't to say that tears didn't fall when it was all over and I was safe.

> I am NOT going to try to beat a guy up who tries to attack me.

He never tried to attack you, and I never suggested that you try to "beat him up". You are likely incompetent (due to tendency to panic and lack of training) to overpower a person with the advantage of physical strength and size.

> I'm going to try to run the fuck away to a place where people
> are and call for help.

That's exactly what you didn't do, which was my criticism. You left a store (which presumably contained some staff and another shopper or two) for a bathroom (which was likely to be completely deserted). You didn't try to get help (tell the store clerk some creep was following you and that you'll be hanging around up front until he's gone, call the police, etc.). You thought about calling your friends with the express goal that they aid the investigation after you disappeared.

Moving to a populated place and getting help would have been *good* moves.

> I would love to see how it would turn out if you actually did
> try your ninja skills on a 6 foot 200 pound man.

You repeatedly indicate that you feel that my point, and/or the point of self defense or martial arts training, is to go around "beating up" creepy guys. This is not my point, nor is it a good reason to train in self defense or martial arts.

Unfortunately, you seem to be ruled by blind fear, which leaves one to base instincts: fight or flight. Persons such as myself with martial arts training have enough confidence to stop and think tactically. Doing that gives us more than two choices -- fight or flight -- and thus makes us safer.

Sure, I've come out on top in physical confrontations, but I'm not unbeatable by a long shot. (I'm not even a particularly skilled martial artist. My training has been frustratingly inconsistent due to other lifestyle factors.) Despite your attempts to erect an easier-to-refute straw man, I have at no time suggested physical confrontation in that situation or as a general strategy. Every good martial arts instructor teaches us to avoid a dangerous situation whenever possible.

Thinking tactically makes one more able to avoid physical confrontation.

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Now for what's really buggi... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 5:13 PM | Posted by HedgeMage: | Reply

Now for what's really bugging me, if you haven't guessed it already:

Is it possible to change the minds of those who perceive universal futility in self-protection, and get them to stop abdicating responsibility for their own safety?

...and if so, how do we do it?

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That's just too fucking lon... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 7:27 PM | Posted, in reply to HedgeMage's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

That's just too fucking long.

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You can tell them all the r... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 8:04 PM | Posted, in reply to HedgeMage's comment, by George: | Reply

You can tell them all the reasons they should take active responsibility for their own safety, and explain to them that they are not helpless, but they probably won't listen. You can't change other people's minds--they need to come to conclusions like that on their own.

They view themselves as victims because they choose to see things that way. They choose to believe "I am weak. I could not protect myself if I were in a dangerous situation." Most of the time there are no good ways to persuade people to see things differently than they already do.

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"This is simply untrue. Ski... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 8:05 PM | Posted by someone: | Reply

"This is simply untrue. Skill will trump physical size in any melee confrontation."

Maybe, depending on the skill gap and the nature of the confrontation. I think it was Royce Gracie who beat some humongous guy in an early UFC fight by submitting him, but even he was a fit and strong athlete. He didn't have just a skill advantage. Also, weight classes exist for a reason.

"I've seen young teenage girls barely over 5' hold their own sparring with grown men over 6' tall."

What kind of sparring?

"In close quarters, guns are not particularly effective against a target with even basic martial training due to the ease of disarming the attacker"

Yes, guns are ineffective at close quarters, but let's not fly off into la la land by pretending that disarming is so easy that almost anyone can do it.

"This is simply not true. I've defended myself from a potential rapist who had a serious size and strength advantage over me."

Almost all women who brag about their deadly kung fu skills are full of shit and completely delusional. That probably includes you, considering your ludicrous statements that betray a lack of knowledge. Women love to pretend that they can beat any man with "skill" and "speed" and perhaps "dirty techniques," because this lets them conviniently ignore their strength and size disadvantages. Not much different from some nerd convincing himself that he can defeat gunmen with a katana.

Feminist "empowerment" is based on nothing but delusions.

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Hey, look I'm an American a... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 8:09 PM | Posted, in reply to customs's comment, by joycejames: | Reply

Hey, look I'm an American and frequently ashamed and disgust with my coutnry (and myself) and before some of you go off on how saying this is just narcissism playing the part of an intellectual self loathing american.....I just want to say.

"Fuck all of you" no, customs, fuck YOU. I can only speak for myself (uh-oh, used "I!" Must be a narcissist!) but I would never, EVER think less of someone because of their country of origin, background, family, education, ANYTHING. One of my jobs involves tutoring ESL students and I can say they get as much respect from me as any student. Most of them are better writers, too! Not all Americans are self absorbed twats who watch too many movies. Some of us give a fuck about others, some of us are driven to distraction, sleeplessness, over any sort of suffering that may, MAY be the fault of our county's leaders, foreign policy...shit, I freak out if I think I may have spoken too harshly to someone, or messed up counting someone's change at the register and shorted them....we're not all assholes. We're not all rich, upper middle class latte sipping victims either. Some of us HAVE been attacked. By men. Raped. It doesn't mean that we feel no empathy and cannot relate to others...but, you know what? I was attacked when I was y younger, I know what I look like, and if a strange man approaches me in line, at the store, whatever, my first thought is: is he fucking with me? are there guys waiting outside to jump me? Did I do something I am unaware of to cause him displeasure? Some of us have come from violent, broken, damaged families. This isn't an American problem, it's a worldwide problem. Cynicism is fun and I suppose it's a fine cloak for one's feelings, but Jesus Christ, are we all so fucking awful now that we can't just be NICE to one another?

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I really feel bad for you t... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 8:22 PM | Posted, in reply to joycejames's comment, by George: | Reply

I really feel bad for you that you go through life feeling like there are strange men everywhere out to get you.

I'm very happy that I don't constantly feel paranoid about my personal safety when chatting with strangers in the grocery line.

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> He didn't have just a ski... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 8:50 PM | Posted, in reply to someone's comment, by HedgeMage: | Reply

> He didn't have just a skill advantage. Also, weight classes exist
> for a reason.

I never meant to imply that skill trumps all advantages, I'm sorry if that was unclear. What I was trying to communicate was that, barring other inequalities, a larger, stronger unskilled attacker will not best a smaller, sufficiently skilled defender. If the attacker wins, there's something else at work as well: element of surprise, an armed attacker vs. unarmed defender, the occasional bout of dumb luck, etc.

>"I've seen young teenage girls barely over 5' hold their own
> sparring with grown men over 6' tall."
> What kind of sparring?

I had someone from my old knife-fighting group in mind when I said that, but now that I think about it there was a girl from my friend's jiu-jitsu dojo who does the same.

> let's not fly off into la la land by pretending that disarming is
> so easy that almost anyone can do it.

Is it straw man season and nobody told me? I never said that "disarming is so easy that almost anyone can do it". I definitely think that disarming an unskilled attacker whose attention is split between the gun and trying to rape his victim is easy enough that just about anyone who's bothered to learn and practice can do it.

> Almost all women who brag about their deadly kung fu skills
> are full of shit and completely delusional. That probably
> includes you,

Never at any time did I pretend to have studied kung foo, nor did I brag about my skills. As a matter of fact I specifically linked to a blog post in which I detailed the ways that my martial arts training has been disrupted over the years as evidence of my *lack of* an unusual or unattainable level of skill.

> Women love to pretend that they can beat any man with "skill"
> and "speed" and perhaps "dirty techniques," because this lets
> them conveniently ignore their strength and size disadvantages.

I operate under no such delusion. What I do know is that violent rapists and skilled martial artists are two groups with almost no overlap. Your common criminal, who is dumb enough to, for example, attack a woman in the middle of a store with plenty of witnesses, will likely only take a clear head and a modicum of skill to overcome. A fourth degree black belt is not going to try to rape a stranger in a shopping center.

> Feminist "empowerment" is based on nothing but delusions.

Geeze, you are the second person in this thread to call me a feminist. Did I forget to shave my legs, or is this just a random ad hominem attack?

I realize that many people are attached to the idea of women (or people in general) as helpless victims. Our society tells us that we live in a world of criminals, potential victims, and police. The problem is that police can't guard everyone all the time. So, the rest of us are better off if we ditch the victim mentality and take the time to learn how to protect ourselves.

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"I've seen young teenage gi... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 9:22 PM | Posted by a: | Reply

"I've seen young teenage girls barely over 5' hold their own sparring with grown men over 6' tall."

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"I've seen young teenage gi... (Below threshold)

October 24, 2010 9:24 PM | Posted by anonymous: | Reply

"I've seen young teenage girls barely over 5' hold their own sparring with grown men over 6' tall."


Hahahahaha. No you haven't. Life isn't a video game where every character is balanced and the girls have speed and skill while the guys have power and defense or some BS. The skill difference depends on the person, but men are faster *and* stronger than women on average.

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I cannot believe it ... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 12:25 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply


I cannot believe it is being argued that women should learn "martial arts" to defend themselves... as if this is going to be effective in real life if a man does decide to attack you. It's such a load of crap, and I totally don't believe it.

Look, I have no doubt that an extremely skilled, physically agile and talented (read: special) girl, when properly trained, can overpower/outmanuver even men twice her size.
However, your average woman does not have the potential (and has no interest in the training) to be skilled in martial arts. I am extremely clumsy, I can barely walk in a line without falling. I will NEVER be good at martial arts. Even if I wanted to train, I would always suck.

In response to hedgemage's question, I pose another question:

How do we get narcissistic people to accept their limitations and to accept reality - not everyone can be a superstar who can do whatever they want, not all women can be martial artists who can strut around potential rapists without fear. The majority of women will never be able to defend themselves well against a man who is trying to attack them. If the majority of women could defend themselves well against men who attack them, women would not often be the victims of rape, of murder (by men), and spousal abuse.

It does not make a woman or a girl a "victim" if she is reality based and rational and says to herself "hey, I am 115 pounds and 5'5, and that guy is 6 ft tall and 180 pounds, if he attacks me odds are very good he will win any confrontation, so my best bet is to flee and stay in public places". It just makes her reality based if she says that. Even if I did attempt to learn "martial arts" I am such a clumsy person and generally very poor at anything physical I attempt (I blame the quasi-autism) that I will never be any good at it... certainly not good enough to overcome the debilitation of weighing barely more than 100 pounds.

But you are a special snowflake and you can do whatever you want, so you totally believe this nonsense that you could take down any attacker. Go watch another movie. You took the "I am so great I love me" lessons in kindergarten too literally I think. You claim to have successfully used martial arts against an attacker in real life. My question to you is: how tall are you and how much do you weight, vs the attacker? I seriously doubt you are as small as an average woman (or the man was as large as an average man) because I just cannot fathom a normal sized woman realistically "defeating" any average sized man.

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Anon 9:24 - yes, exactly.<b... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 12:33 AM | Posted, in reply to anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Anon 9:24 - yes, exactly.
ON FUCKCING AVERAGE, men have way more potential and raw talent when it comes to physical ability.

The narcissism and delusional thinking of people is so upsetting. It doesn't make me a weak victim if I say to myself "almost any man who tries to attack me, and even many women, will likely easily overpower me" (I am a woman who's stats are being 5'5 and 115). It makes me a realistic person and not a narcissist. I am very good at accurately and realistically appraising and totally accepting my flaws. I don't have the fantasy world ego trip that all of you seem to have.

If I realize I am weak as hell, that doesn't mean I walk around afraid. I totally do whatever I want. I go out at night without fear. I do feel a twinge of fear sometimes if people give me the creepy vibe and I am alone / not near enough people, but I consider that normal. I feel this rational fear and it helps protect me. I don't live in a state of fear, it comes and goes as appropriate. I do not run to my car in parking lots, although occasionally I feel creeped out, but I realize living life afraid is pointless because even waking up in the morning increases your chance of dying. I could be hit by a car, or develop cancer, just as well as I could be attacked in a parking garage, so there is no point in having fear about any of it.

But I will also not sell myself a BS line that "with enough martial arts training, I can have super powers and overpower guys twice my size" because as I said that is such a load of BS. I'm sure there are very rare, talented girls who can do that, but I am not one of them. I can barely hold multiple items at once without dropping them. I bump into desks. I am ridiculously clumsy and doomed to fail any sport I attempt.

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TLP's message: "No" means ... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 12:35 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

TLP's message: "No" means "anal".

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Yea and we know how right f... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 12:37 AM | Posted, in reply to It's a trap's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Yea and we know how right freud was about most stuff, you tool

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>Your PC fairy tal... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 1:59 AM | Posted, in reply to HedgeMage's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

>

Your PC fairy tale forgot to mention the part about "black criminals choosing to rape reproductive aged white women".

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims
80% of all victims were white. Not coincidence.
The overwhelming majority of victims are women (90%) who are reproductive aged (teens to mid 30s). Also not coincidence.
While numerically most rapists are white, blacks and hispanics are GROSSLY overrepresented as rapists when compared to their % of the population.

Keep on learning that knife throwing and karate lady. You can take down a 6 ft 200 # man if you wish upon a star I'm sure.

This is the part where you, on cue, call me a racist and then follow up with saying rape is only about power and has nothing to do with sex.

I'm so glad I'm not stupid and delusional like most people seem to be.

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"What I was trying to commu... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 9:01 AM | Posted by someone: | Reply

"What I was trying to communicate was that, barring other inequalities, a larger, stronger unskilled attacker will not best a smaller, sufficiently skilled defender."

The less size and strength the defender has, the more skill he or she needs to overcome the gap. So the skill requirements could be very, very substantial. But if someone is that good, they're obviously going to be athletic as well. How many elite fighters are physically weak?

"I had someone from my old knife-fighting group in mind when I said that, but now that I think about it there was a girl from my friend's jiu-jitsu dojo who does the same."

You don't need size and strength to stab someone. As for jiu-jitsu, what would happen if those same two practitioners were fighting for real without any rules?

"Is it straw man season and nobody told me? I never said that "disarming is so easy that almost anyone can do it". I definitely think that disarming an unskilled attacker whose attention is split between the gun and trying to rape his victim is easy enough that just about anyone who's bothered to learn and practice can do it."

Unless they're in a state of panic because they never did any live training, and the attacker isn't behaving the way her training suggested he would.

"Never at any time did I pretend to have studied kung foo, nor did I brag about my skills."

Hur hur. Because I was being completely literal.

"Geeze, you are the second person in this thread to call me a feminist. Did I forget to shave my legs, or is this just a random ad hominem attack?"

Your post was consistent with feminist empowerment delusions.

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well if she thinks she can ... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 10:30 AM | Posted by Steve: | Reply

well if she thinks she can train hard enough to beat anyone, let her try.

She has her hobby and maybe she won some physical confrontation in the past. If nothing else, maybe training gave her enough self confidence to think clearly, and that is already an huge benefit. And maybe training keeps her sexier and that's always a plus.

Sure we all know that men are stronger and faster than women, but can a rapist be called a man after all? Some dudes are free of any manliness including physical strength. Being able to defend herself against such a dude is already something useful.

In the end the best bet for a woman is to never travel alone and always be accompanied by a man they trust. But if she wants to train to be self-sufficient, hell, let her try. Don't shit all over her hobbies and ideals.

Yes, men are superior, but does this mean women should get lazy and have no hobbies or ambitions?

Having said that, hedgemage I call bullshit on skill being the most important thing in a fight. I think the most important thing is your overall body conditioning. I'm talking about your overall level of strength, agility, quickness and stamina. Is those things that enable you to beat someone else, they are much more important than skill.

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Wino FTW.... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 10:31 AM | Posted by medsvdtherapy: | Reply

Wino FTW.

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I'm pretty amazed by how ma... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 10:51 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I'm pretty amazed by how many people are arguing against women learning self defense - it's like there are both men and women commenting here who want women to be easy targets. It doesn't take much training to greatly reduce your chances of being attacked in the street by a stranger. Predators look for easy targets, and it's generally less about where you walk and more about how you walk that makes you look like a victim/target/mark - often simply fighting back in any real way, or even turning around and confronting them, is enough to scare them off.

TLP keeps blogging about body language so it might be worth considering some of what he's written about recently. How we stand and walk tells a story about who we are. How aware we are of our surroundings, how fast and confidently we walk, how we carry our shoulders, how we respond to stimuli around us...all these things tell about our state and whether we'll be an easy target or not. Just like our movements and gestures (and scent) give off messages about us when we're cruising someone. And people can smell fear - just as easily as they can smell desperation. The more afraid you are in the world and of others, the more you will attract people who want to victimize you because you're wearing a great big "I'm afraid, pick on me" sign.

Knowing some self defense doesn't make one invincible in any way, it does give you tools to help yourself in an emergency and also can teach you how to walk with confidence. Of course, most rape is committed by someone a woman knows and the shock and weirdness of being violated by someone you know is a whole other kettle of fish psychologically than being attacked by a stranger - however knowing how to defend oneself still gives you options you wouldn't have had otherwise. And, if you're at home in bed and someone has a knife to your throat - it's a whole other situation (and being a big man or a small woman would make no difference, though martial arts training may well be useful).

One of my all time favorite stories about rape defense was an old woman (in her 70s if I recall properly) who grabbed her attacker by the dick and balls and twisted them in opposite directions (sorry about any visceral twinges to the guys reading this who've never raped anyone may get from that description), then called the cops and didn't let him go until they got there. Self defense isn't about size, it's opportunity and being aware. Most rapists aren't some movie demon or an evil Claude Van Dam, they're usually quite the opposite - deluded idiots, sadists, bullies/cowards that are pretty pathetic really. They're certainly not some apex of masculinity or big he-men and it's kind of interesting that some people (both men and women) seem to see them that way. They're just people, shitty ones granted but they're not superhuman.

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Hmm.. reminds me of an expe... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 11:17 AM | Posted by Alex: | Reply

Hmm.. reminds me of an experience I had recently in a book store...
I was casually perusing the selection when I spotted a somewhat disheveled old man peering across the room at a much younger woman, who was trying to get some reading done. He made desperate efforts to appear busy with his laptop, clacking away industriously. Disgusted, I decided to place myself between the two of them, blocking his line of vision. At this point he seemed to lose interest in the woman, redirecting his glances to this new object of voyeurism. Feeling his eyes on the back of my neck, the situation quickly became very uncomfortable...
eerie.. really eerie

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Lots of men still don't und... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 11:59 AM | Posted by Lee: | Reply

Lots of men still don't understand that if you want to meet women you have to actually talk to them. Most women even like to talk. If you have trouble with this it is your fault, not hers.

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Lots of men still don't und... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 12:02 PM | Posted by Lee: | Reply

Lots of men still don't understand that if you want to meet women you have to actually talk to them. Most women even like to talk. If you have trouble with this it is your fault, not hers.

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Wow - as much as I like TLP... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 2:06 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Wow - as much as I like TLP, this post is a little off-the-mark. Not because it said something hidden or controversial, just that it was dead-on and yet TLP thinks this is remarkable.

Of course the guy wanted to talk to the girl. She, in all likelihood, would not have minded if he talked to her, either because she may have been interested in him or as validation that she was attractive enough to talk to, and yes, this is how women think - just look at the Formers (formerly hot women) movement on Oprah.

Who cares what his intentions are, because no man started a conversation with a woman thinking I want to marry this one; that would be weird.

The problem is the implied thought that his goal was sex from the beginning. The goal is always sex - both for men and women, what varies is the context and longevity of the relationship that they want.

But don't over-think the actions of us men. The conversation meta-analysis is usually, "Holy Shit, this girl is talking to me. Awesome!" Anything beyond that is fantasy.

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Regarding self defense for ... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 2:07 PM | Posted by G: | Reply

Regarding self defense for women: The problem is hardly ever skill or strength. If you are a woman, you don't spar with an attacker, you gouge an eye out. The problem is getting women to recognize and accept that they have a right to defend themselves by any means available.

It is simple to teach devastating armed and unarmed techniques to disable or drive off an attacker and I have taught many women to use them.

But most women are very unwilling to inflict serious damage, even when attacked - that is the big problem - women are not acculturated to physical violence.

This may be changing, particularly for women in the military and police, but not for the average woman in a book store.

It would be best if we as a people would turn away from our addiction to violence, but as that seems unlikely, women need to accept that if they are physically attacked they must respond with all force and intent possible.

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G - You make a good point -... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 2:37 PM | Posted, in reply to G's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

G - You make a good point - both about turning away from our addiction to violence as a culture (and our fear, which is what drives the fantasies about being a superhero) and about needing to be willing to inflict pain in order to escape if someone attacks or grabs you. The goal isn't to kick the ass of a rapist, it's to inflict enough pain to get the hell out of there and somewhere safe. It's about self protection and having already practiced and visualized what to do in a situation. Real life will no doubt be different than practice (and even less like rape is usually portrayed in movies), and you never really know how you'll react until you've been in a situation (and every situation will be different), but at least you'll have a better range of options that may allow you to get the hell out of there.

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G makes good points that ra... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 3:02 PM | Posted, in reply to G's comment, by AnonyMouse: | Reply

G makes good points that rarely come up. Strength and skill aren't enough without the will to win - and that will may include listening to your (former) attacker beg for mercy while you crush his testicles in your hands or gouge an eye out.

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"It is simple to teach deva... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 3:09 PM | Posted, in reply to G's comment, by someone: | Reply

"It is simple to teach devastating armed and unarmed techniques to disable or drive off an attacker and I have taught many women to use them."

The problem with these techniques is that you can't practise them, and they are unlikely to work in a live situation. Sparring is exactly what you need to learn fighting.

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anon 10:51 - I am arguing a... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 3:18 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

anon 10:51 - I am arguing against bullshit.

Again, we have people jumping to emotional extremes. Me making an argument against karate skillz isn't an argument for making myself or any other woman a victim... it is an argument against bullshit. If someone tells me buying a packet of magic beans will make me an agricultural millionaire, I'm calling BS. Similarly, if women try to sell me some bullshit that with a little karate I can take down 200 pound men, I automatically know that's crap. I don't doubt some small women have the physical potential and the extensive training to do it, but that isn't me and never will be me. I drop things if I try to hold them. I hate sports. I am totally okay with being physically weak, I don't feel like a victim, I have never been victimized at all, maybe then I would feel like a victim but I doubt all the karate in the world would help.

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..and who on earth said any... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 3:21 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

..and who on earth said anything about rapists being "he-men"? I just see them as men, and if they are men that means they are PROBABLY much taller than me and heavier than me. Most women can take me down, and almost all men can. I really feel no fear about this fact as I have never been attacked in my life and generally avoid situations where I can be attacked. I do not live in a ghetto, for example, I live in a safe neighborhood patrolled by cops on the regular.

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hahahahahaaa ... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 3:23 PM | Posted, in reply to Alex's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

hahahahahaaa

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The first thing I teach is ... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 4:39 PM | Posted, in reply to someone's comment, by G: | Reply

The first thing I teach is that physical attackers must get close to do harm to you; once they are that close they are open to attack themselves. Don't hesitate, don't wonder why you are being attacked, don't try to reason with the attacker; above all, do not turn your back to the attacker - you attack - with everything and anything you you have.

Forget dignity: scream, kick, bite, claw, spit, urinate, defecate, headbutt elbow smash, knee and stamp; all of these are instinctive actions that require no training - just do them all and do not stop until you are free and away.

Trained self defense is great, but you must be very motivated to master the training.

Be a badger; badgers are not attackers they wish only to be left alone; but if attacked, they retaliate, and many is the predator that went for a badger and barely lived to regret it.

They just don't stop.

A small woman I taught was attacked by a large man, he tackled her and rolled down a hill with her; by the time they reached the bottom, she had bitten his thumb nearly through.

She did not hesitate, she instantly went on the attack. When they reached the bottom of the slope, he got up and ran away, bleeding profusely.

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If you're trying to say tha... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 5:14 PM | Posted, in reply to someone's comment, by ThePedanticGooFromSpace: | Reply

If you're trying to say that you're asexual, then that's a different matter from whether you have a sex life or not.

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NO offense buddy but you ar... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 6:05 PM | Posted, in reply to someone's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

NO offense buddy but you are coming across as:
1) homosexual and in denial to yourself
OR
2) heterosexual, but majorly repressed sexually. This self hatred and repression produces irrational anger toward women and the obviously false proclamations you have "no desire to interact with women".

If you are heterosexual and well adjusted, you should want to interact with attractive women. Stating you have "no desire" to interact with attractive women is evidence that you are lying about something... either your sexual orientation OR your sexual impulses/social adjustment, either way something is off.

You go about saying these things as if they made sense and were normal, when it is obvious to anyone reading your comments that there is something wrong with you and you are selling a load of BS either to yourself and/or others. I don't know what the deal is, whether you are gay or whether you are so socially/personally maladjusted that you have deluded yourself into believing you have no desire to interact with attractive women... I suspect the latter is the case since gay / closeted men generally do not hate women (some may) but it is much more common for sexually frustrated maladjusted heterosexual men to hate women for desiring them but being so inept to maneuver society or obtain any kind of sexual interaction with the women they desire.

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NO one is asexual. There ar... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 6:09 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

NO one is asexual. There are people perhaps with physical disorders which totally kill their sexual feeling (e.g. starvation can completely eliminate fertility and sexual drive, as can primary endocrine disorder)... but this is not being asexual, this is being unhealthy and having no sexual feeling. I have never heard of anyone who had no sexual feeling what so ever. There are people with very low sex drives and there are people who have lost their sex drives totally (but once had them), but normal exposure to hormones which all of us have should produce some kind of sexual feeling... although strength of it and focus of it can vary incredibly.

When anyone tries to sell that they are asexual, suspect they are full of it, trying to reason away what they cannot and do not want to deal with.

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nothing.just figured... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 6:15 PM | Posted by skeptic: | Reply

nothing.
just figured the nember of comments on this post has to be record. if not, then i want to do my bit to help the cause.

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I'm not asexual. I just don... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 8:56 PM | Posted, in reply to ThePedanticGooFromSpace's comment, by someone: | Reply

I'm not asexual. I just don't have a sex life and I'm not involved in the "sexual marketplace."

Anonymous: "NO offense buddy but you are coming across as:
1) homosexual and in denial to yourself
OR
2) heterosexual, but majorly repressed sexually."

You need a better imagination.

"...obviously false proclamations you have "no desire to interact with women"."

How would you prove it was an obviously false proclamation? When I walk down the street I never think "gee, I wish I could do something with that woman over there."

"If you are heterosexual and well adjusted, you should want to interact with attractive women."

What does "well-adjusted" mean?

"I don't know what the deal is, whether you are gay or whether you are so socially/personally maladjusted that you have deluded yourself into believing you have no desire to interact with attractive women..."

Let me guess: you're a feminist and you feel threatened by men like me, since you have no way of manipulating and controlling us with sex?

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"How aware we are of our su... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 9:23 PM | Posted by rox: | Reply

"How aware we are of our surroundings, how fast and confidently we walk, how we carry our shoulders, how we respond to stimuli around us...all these things tell about our state and whether we'll be an easy target or not. Just like our movements and gestures (and scent) give off messages about us when we're cruising someone. And people can smell fear - just as easily as they can smell desperation. The more afraid you are in the world and of others, the more you will attract people who want to victimize you because you're wearing a great big "I'm afraid, pick on me" sign. "

This is spot on and from what I've read this is really how "rapists" pick targets. They aren't usually strangers. They get to know someone, and often they don't think of themselves as "rapists" with sinister plots afoot. They just smell weakness and they want to hit it and they know they can.

For the majority of women with "I am fucking weak and scared of you" written all over them, there is no force required. Just a very basic knowledge of female weakness, fear and insecurities and how to push the right way. The goal for a lot of these guys is not to "rape" but to convince her to submitt.

The reason this is so easy, especially with young ones, is that we are programed to believe that thinking a man might be thinking about pushing sex makes us narcissists.

Ok so this guy is staring, but I can't think he's into me. That would make me special and must be wrong. Ok this guy is standing really close to me and I feel awkward, but we work together, I can't think anything is up because that would mean I'm thinking he's into me, which is self absorbed, or I'm putting him in a bad light when he might be innocently just standing there. That would be wrong, so whatever. Ok so does he need to have his leg jammed up against mine while we're doing these papers? This is fucked up. Or is it fucked up. Yes it's fucked up, no I'm overthinking.

By that point the girl is so freaked out the physical advantage is not not about muscle or skill. It's about the mind.

As a woman, you'd do yourself the best favor by practiving reading people and not being afraid to be percieved as an asshole by moving your fucking leg. Literally, it took me to my late teens before I realized that I just move the fuck away and I didn't have be right or wrong about someones intentions. I don't care who you are, if you are a guy I will not walk in the room alone with you. If that offends people, they can bite me. That stops anything from happening.

Don't go in a room alone with a guy, don't get drunk with a guy, move away immediately when someone stands in your space and don't give it a moments thought.

And since applying these rules I have only experienced messed up crap from guys when I've broken my own rules. Not that it doesn't happen to women who are alone in a parking lot or whatever but the stats, from my interperetation seem to be filled with situations that involved psychological intimidation before any physical force is used. Most of them don't break you with their fists.

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A heterosexual man who is w... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 10:52 PM | Posted, in reply to someone's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

A heterosexual man who is well adjusted should have thoughts about desiring women they see. That is normal. It is not normal for a man who is heterosexual and young and physically healthy to have no desire to have sex with women they see.

You are trying to twist things to make it seem like your perspective is normal and adjusted but really it is pathological. You are either lying about something, and/or you are maladjusted in general, using porn to replace real interactions with real people. IT IS NOT NORMAL to not want to ever have sex with women you see. If you are a healthy person with a normal sex drive , you should want to have sex with attractive people of your orientation. This has nothing to do with "me being a feminist" and it has everything to do with you saying something that does not make sense, sounds freakish and abnormal, and like a big load of crap.

You're just clearly so full of shit, sir.

Regarding "what is well-adjusted", well adjusted means having a good relationship with yourself and others and the society at large. It excludes using internet porn as a replacement for real sex with women (because it is too hard, and you are too inept and too narcissistic / self centered to care). You do not sound well adjusted. You sound like a social failure who jerks off to fetish porn in replacement for any kind of relationship with any kind of person... and you lack the remarkable insight or humility to realize how pathetic your chosen way of living is, so you freely flaunt it as if it were something to be proud of ("I do it, so it's good, because I am all that ever matters")

Regarding you being "Manipulation proof" - lol. In order for any woman to CARE about manipulating a man, he has to be worth something. What are you worth? You seem pathetic in every way. Why would anyone care enough about you to manipulate you? Again, self centered egocentric thinking reigns supreme. What do YOU offer a woman? The answer: Nothing. You are probably either fat or underweight, pale, underemployed, undereducated, with a dismal passive personality, generally a loser. The idea that you have to worry about being "manipulated" by women is ridiculous. NO one wants anything from you and most women who do encounter you are probably glad that you spend your days pretending not to want them.

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I agree with this post rox,... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 11:02 PM | Posted, in reply to rox's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

I agree with this post rox, but I don't think it is at all relevant to rape. You are describing seduction and cooersion, if anything at all. That is not rape. Rape is when a woman says no (or is not given an opportunity to say no because she is attacked or drugged), but a man uses his physical advantage to have sex with her.
The phenomenon of men intimidating women physically and sexually, to manipulate her into sex, certainly isn't nice but I wouldn't describe it as rape. It is only rape if she says no, and he persists anyway... or if he physically attacks her, or drugs her.

Perhaps it isn't fair or right for men to psychologically manipulate and dominate vulnerable women this way, with the end goal being sex, but this is not rape. I just can't say it any other way. It is not rape.

Too many women seem to think rape is about how good you feel about the sex you have. If your boss or some domineering male in your life coerces you into sex, and you do not refuse but rather meekly submit, that is not rape even if you didn't enjoy it and didn't want to do it.. it's only rape if you refuse and he ignores you and just takes advantage of his size to overpower you (or drug you so you have no say in the matter).

I mean, I do see what you're saying... but the problem you are describing is not rape. You are describing manipulation and being used, which is ENTIRELY different from rape.

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(same anon as above)<... (Below threshold)

October 25, 2010 11:06 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

(same anon as above)

Also regarding your thought processes ("He is staring at me, but can't be into me... he is standing close to me, but can't be into me")... this reflects a woman who is clearly extremely low in self esteem. Women with high self esteem would not think this way. Any woman with high self esteem would think "that guy is staring at me, and he is thinking sexual thoughts, that creep". Only a woman who is desperately low in self esteem to the point where she doesn't even see herself as remotely sexually attractive would have that line of thought... which, unfortunately, makes her an easy target for manipulation. And yes, I agree, it is women with low self esteem who are the easiest targets for these asshole men who manipulate them into sex (which they do not enjoy and walk away from feeling used as if it were rape).

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It's interesting how Alone ... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 12:21 AM | Posted by OIC Now: | Reply

It's interesting how Alone makes a post that quickly bubbles to the surface someones insecurities, issues, whathave you.......

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"You think you're going ... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 12:26 AM | Posted, in reply to jj's comment, by Dave: | Reply

"You think you're going to lay your ycombinator rap on her?"

That line takes this to another level. Nice.

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I got pretty creeped out wh... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 2:25 AM | Posted, in reply to rox's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

I got pretty creeped out while reading this.

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There is a lot of talking a... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 5:42 AM | Posted by Steve: | Reply

There is a lot of talking about women being stared by men here. No men here is ever stared at by women? It happens to me all the time in public places.

Waiting for the green light and women stare at me, I'm in line somewhere and women keep looking at me until I look back, then they look away, then they look back again (repeat). Even female friends some times just keep glancing at me. And let's not talk about the girls I catch staring at my pecs or my crotch.

Any men here has similar experiences? Do the women here stare at men?

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How did this go from "how n... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 8:02 AM | Posted by Whatever: | Reply

How did this go from "how not to meet a woman" to "rapists and self-defense"?

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The reason it's relevant to... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 9:45 AM | Posted by rox: | Reply

The reason it's relevant to rape is that once a situation like the above is happening guys don't tend to hear the word no. This is further complicated by the fact that many women give a wishy washy no like, "I'm not ready for this" (Guys hear-you need me to help you get ready) or "Look I don't want to do this" (Guys hear-you're conflicted and you need me to help push through your obstacles) and a straight up no is followed by something like, "I think you do". If as a woman you're cowering and shrinking, you need more than words, you have to MOVE. If you physically move away before you're completely overpowered, you've ended it. It doesn't require kung fu skills so much as being willing to fight your own insticts to shut down and cower and handle the situation "nicely".

If you've ever worked with or supported women who have dealt with being raped, you'll find there are a lot of women who are struggling to understand this dynamic, and then there are a number of women who have just been physically caught off gaurd and overwpowered and just need some support with the trauma of experiencing that. Once it's happened once, women are at a much higher risk of it happening again. And that is everything to do with having "fear" written on your forhead and an instictual cowering when it's appropriate to be assertive and forceful.

But it is mostly irrelevant to the original post. Fortunately most guys
a- aren't even wanting to participate in this kind of dynamic
b- don't know how to psycholigically overpower a woman even if they want to
c- Have empathy and would stop themselves even if they saw prey and knew what they could do with it

The guy in the book store, if he was in fact interested, was most likely just a shy/insecure guy who didn't meet a woman. As the post is titled.

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"A heterosexual man who is ... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 10:00 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by someone: | Reply

"A heterosexual man who is well adjusted should have thoughts about desiring women they see. That is normal."

Maybe I'm not interested in the local women. Maybe I'm not interested in a relationship right now (and even if I were, random women on the street aren't part of that equation).

"You are trying to twist things to make it seem like your perspective is normal and adjusted but really it is pathological."

It's just rational.

"You are either lying about something, and/or you are maladjusted in general, using porn to replace real interactions with real people."

"It excludes using internet porn as a replacement for real sex with women (because it is too hard, and you are too inept and too narcissistic / self centered to care)."

If a man substitutes porn for real women, that means feminists lose control over him. This is also why feminists are against prostitution and marrying foreign women from non-feminist cultures. It's all about control.

"You sound like a social failure who jerks off to fetish porn in replacement for any kind of relationship with any kind of person... and you lack the remarkable insight or humility to realize how pathetic your chosen way of living is, so you freely flaunt it as if it were something to be proud of ("I do it, so it's good, because I am all that ever matters")"

Feminist shaming language 101. Also, how could you possibly know what kind of porn -- if any -- I jerk off to? You couldn't, so you're just making things up. Because you aren't thinking rationally. Because you are hysterical.

"Regarding you being "Manipulation proof" - lol. In order for any woman to CARE about manipulating a man, he has to be worth something. What are you worth? You seem pathetic in every way."

Too bad this statement is not backed up by anything.

"Again, self centered egocentric thinking reigns supreme."

As if this had something to do with me specifically.

"What do YOU offer a woman? The answer: Nothing. You are probably either fat or underweight, pale, underemployed, undereducated, with a dismal passive personality, generally a loser. The idea that you have to worry about being "manipulated" by women is ridiculous. NO one wants anything from you and most women who do encounter you are probably glad that you spend your days pretending not to want them."

Reading your post, it's clear that you got more and more angry and terrified as you were writing it. Heh heh.

Ok, so let's get back to planet Earth: you are flipping the fuck out and being completely batshit hysterical just because I announced that I've no interest in random women I see on the street. A well-adjusted person, i.e. someone who is not a feminist, would shrug their shoulders and move on. But not you. Because you're terrified of losing control over men, of not being able to use your vagina to manipulate them. That's all there is to it.

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CAPS LOCK FOR EMPHASIS... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 10:14 AM | Posted by CAPS LOCK: | Reply

CAPS LOCK FOR EMPHASIS

HAVEN'T YOU CAUGHT ONTO HIS GAME YET??HE WRITES TO MAKE YOU REACT AND THINK ABOUT YOUR REACTIONS. WHO EVEN KNOWS IF THIS HAPPENED OR IF HE EVEN BELIEVES WHAT HE WROTE. THE POST ISN'T ABOUT A GUY IN A BOOKSTORE SCARED TO TALK TO A WOMAN, IT'S ABOUT YOU GUYS OVERTHINKING TALKING TO A WOMAN.

HOW DID THIS BECOME ABOUT FEMINISM AND RAPE?

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Steve and everyone here sho... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 10:16 AM | Posted, in reply to Steve's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Steve and everyone here should consider that when you think people are staring at you because you're hot, they may actually be looking at you for an entirely different reason. People stare at other people for all kinds of reasons - because they're hot, because they're trainwrecks, because they're wearing interesting outfits, because they have snot hanging from their nose and don't notice, because they happen to be in front of their eyes, because the person staring is autistic and it doesn't occur to them to look away, and on it goes. The funniest, of course, are the people you look at because they've made themselves into a parody of "sexy" and are so obviously over-compensating - it's all the funnier when they think you're looking because they're hot and start preening. Vanity, it can be very funny.

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AnAnon - You know, they may... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 10:59 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by AnAnon: | Reply

AnAnon - You know, they may be looking in your direction and not actually at you. They may be looking at someone else standing near you. Or they may be looking at you but not for the reasons you want them to be looking at you. Just saying, the other person may have reasons for looking at you or in your general direction that have absolutely nothing to do with your internal narrative about how sexy you are and how sexy other people find you. Even when someone flirts with you, it may not be very personal. Some people flirt with everyone because it's a useful social tactic and for some people it's just a natural way of interacting (it's just how they learned to move through the world). Showing interest in others (whether it's flirty or just being kind, and whether it's genuine or a contrived tactic) tends to work quite well in terms of getting people to cooperate. Flirting is pretty harmless social interaction - it's meant to be light and in many ways trivial and easy to dismiss. It gets creepy when people take flirting seriously and forget it's meant to be light and leave lots of room for people to escape - instead turning it into "The Game" where men and women hunt and try to trap each other (what then? keep them locked in the basement?). Clearly, from some of the comments this blog has incited, there are people who think flirting is some sort of major power play (and all about their own ego) instead of the light and fluffy interaction it's meant to be that's really just as much about making someone else feel good as it is about having a bit of fun. Being desperate to get laid and/or deeply resentful of women because you're not getting laid (and so desperate that you're treating every woman like a vagina not a person) will always preclude being a good flirt. Both people who genuinely like people and successful narcissists tend to be good flirts, those who are socially uncomfortable or unsuccessful narcissists generally aren't. (An unsuccessful narcissist has the narcissistic sense of entitlement but isn't clever or good looking enough to manipulate people like a clever narcissist can - they're more dangerous to the general public while successful narcissists are more dangerous to people who are part of the image that has been constructed.) It should be noted, that shy and socially awkward people can be very good flirts once they're comfortable with someone - an unsuccessful narcissist probably never will be, unless they address their narcissism, since their issue isn't shyness.

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I DON'T KNOW WHY, BUT IT IS... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 11:05 AM | Posted by rox: | Reply

I DON'T KNOW WHY, BUT IT IS AN INTERESTING SUBJECT UNTO ITSELF THAT THE CONVERSATION WENT THIS DIRECTION ISN'T IT?! (caps lock to demonstrate shouting, loudly)

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TLP"So how's a moder... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 11:20 AM | Posted, in reply to AnAnon's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

TLP
"So how's a modern woman supposed to politely decline the advances of a future parole violator? If you say, "I just want to read my book," it's easily taken as an insult by comparison, "what, I'm not more important than a stupid book? Who knew sluts could read. Oh, it's Vogue and you're just looking at the pictures. Dumb whore." (Hey wildman, easy...)"

Alone brought up rape and the dangers of arousing narcissistic rage in a man when you reject an advance. For those paying attention, he also laid out how to reject someone in a way that's less likely to arouse narcissistic rage (though, of course, doesn't at all do anything about men who walk around in a narcissistic rage because they feel entitled to sex simply because they desire sex, you can usually tell them by how much hate, resentment and blame they ooze...same goes for women who hate men in the same objectified way.)

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Hi, can we please have a ne... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 11:30 AM | Posted by Bored: | Reply

Hi, can we please have a new post Mr. Alone?
THANK YOU .

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Nice, feel better about you... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 12:38 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Steve: | Reply

Nice, feel better about yourself now?

Of course, it's easier to believe that others are just evil, preening narcissists being stared at by autistics because of snot dripping than to accept that others may be attractive (after all, good looking people do not exist, right?)

I am vain and I love boasting, but yours is just pure narcissistic defense.

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Steve - Defensive much? Nob... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 12:56 PM | Posted, in reply to Steve's comment, by AnAnon: | Reply

Steve - Defensive much? Nobody said that people don't look at other people because they find them attractive, just that there are also other reasons that people look at each other (particularly when they stare at another person). And, hey, maybe sometimes they're not even really looking at you. Shocking though it may seem, people do have motivations of their own that have nothing to do with the needs of your ego.

If you believe people ALWAYS and ONLY look at you because you're so hot then you're deluded (even if you do happen to be someone that many people consider hot). Who knows what you're really like in real life but you come off here as exactly the sort of guy that a lot of women laugh at - if women are looking and giggling, it may be less flattering than you assume. Or not, women do check out guys - sometimes because they're hot, sometimes because they're stylish, sometimes because we think you're gay and we're not homophobes, sometimes because they're a trainwreck and it's hard to look away, sometimes because you simply crossed our visual path, and many other reasons. Do you find you get hit on by gay men all the time?

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Shy doesn't always mean ins... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 1:42 PM | Posted, in reply to rox's comment, by AnAnon: | Reply

Shy doesn't always mean insecure, it can just mean shy and socially awkward. People who are really shy - as a personality trait and not just a passing feeling - find social interaction with strangers stressful, so tend to blush, stutter, etc. We can all feel shy (well, most of us, anyway) but that's not quite the same as being a shy person. (There seems to be some decent evidence that at least some of being a predominantly shy or outgoing person is genetic.)

Insecure people can often come off as the opposite of shy because the person is over-compensating for their insecurities. People who come off as parodies of sexy (be they men or women) are often overcompensating for something. Sure some people are naturally very gregarious and outgoing, and a small percentage of people are hyper-masculine or feminine without the aid of drugs or surgery (though clearly drugs and/or surgery are used by many people to reach what is, for them at least, an unnatural and constructed ideal of male or female beauty that really ends up being a form of unconscious drag, as in drag queens and kings, when it's a construct).

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Such a big number of rapes ... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 3:21 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Such a big number of rapes in America and a so high percent of white women can be attributed to the fact that a lot of these reported rapes are fake and exist only in the minds of the so-called victims, though real victims are men who get the quick & unfair trials and long & unwarranted sentences.
Things that qualify as rape and harrasment in America will hold anywhere in the world. And lots of things that qualify as rape if reported by a white woman will not hold if reported by a non-white or an alien.
That is the reason for rape stats, not some hordes of rapists lurking in the dark.

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Anonymous above, I totally ... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 5:32 PM | Posted by rox: | Reply

Anonymous above, I totally hear you dude. When are we going follow the lead of some forward thinking countries that stone women to death for adultery? Obviously, you and me know that men don't need to be put to death for adultery, it's obviously always the woman's fault.

In Ireland they had the right idea up until recently, if a woman got raped, knocked up, had a disability or was otherwise a blight to society they put you to work in the Laundries away from the rest of society, where they could be abused by priests and made useful. The invention of the laundry machine ruined this otherwise perfect idea. As we know, these women forced the priests to abuse them because they were all THERE having vaginas and stuff.

I know anon, it sucks that America has deviated from the rest of the enlightened world in this regard. Perhaps we can put this right. I'll start by putting myself in my very own self started laundry. I'll see about finding a priest somewhere who can punish me for my sexuality. Sound good?

: |

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You're overreacting.<... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 7:03 PM | Posted, in reply to Aurini's comment, by inarticulate in the city: | Reply

You're overreacting.

Alone: "I don't blame the guy for being nervous, I blame him for thinking he can bend reality to his will."

He's there because he thinks HIS PRESENCE will MAKE her notice him. His presence. His INSISTENCE on being there. He's OBLIVIOUS, totally OBLIVIOUS to the fact she's on to him.

I was reading comics in a library when I met my first serious boyfriend. I was seventeen at the time, he was eighteen. He and a friend asked if they could sit at my table, since there weren't any other seats available (small comic books library). I knew he was doing that because he felt attracted to me, I could tell by the way he behaved, by the way he established small talk.

But he talked. He AUDITIONED. He didn't act as if he was some kind of diamond lost in the sand in the hopes a girl would finally notice how valuable he was WHILE AT THE SAME TIME failing to realize that yes, she had noticed, and no, she was not interested, as in the scenario Alone painted.

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You're really annoying. So ... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 7:26 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by inarticulate in the city: | Reply

You're really annoying. So what if women want to take their chances and sometimes even actually succeed at avoiding harm to themselves?

What's so horrible about that that makes you so angry?

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"who grabbed her attacker b... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 7:32 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by inarticulate in the city: | Reply

"who grabbed her attacker by the dick and balls and twisted them in opposite directions (sorry about any visceral twinges to the guys reading this who've never raped anyone may get from that description), then called the cops and didn't let him go until they got there."

how did she manage to do that... and call the cops at the same time?

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What Wino said.I´m... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 7:52 PM | Posted, in reply to Wino's comment, by Centrosphere: | Reply

What Wino said.

I´m brazilian _ actually, I´m a "carioca", a native from Rio de Janeiro city. Despite all the bad words about Rio in terms of security, we are a very talkative bunch, even when measured against brazilian standards. I think our "paulistas" cousins, people from São Paulo city, are more like the average american _ their problem is not shyness but a self-agrandizzing sense of privacy.

I have met some people from East Europe and have the feeling that we are much alike. As we don´t have really a common cultural ground, I think that this convergence in moods must be explained by some similar historical fates.

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"And, if you're at home in ... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2010 10:40 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

"And, if you're at home in bed and someone has a knife to your throat"

If that happens, you have been living in a dream world where elementary precautions are ignored because "I refuse to live in fear like that"

I have known women who said things like that, who refused to lock their doors and windows. I know two women who had just moved into new places, and to celebrate, one fixed everything up nice, the other lit a candle, burned some incense and both went peacefully to bed - both to be awakened by a rapist and a knife to the throat.

Think about that! This is a violent society - the violence practiced by those at the top - secret wars, proxy wars, The war on": everything - does not go unnoticed by the lower orders - we have thousands (millions?) of people trained to kill without remorse - they do not just go away when we declare victory and go home. Some of them are warped forever, many are homeless and some turn to predation.

So if you should happen to hear some poor woman say "I refuse to live in fear like that" say to her what I say "You may not want to live that way, but you may have to die that way!

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You must be a sexy beast, S... (Below threshold)

October 27, 2010 12:48 AM | Posted, in reply to Steve's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

You must be a sexy beast, Steve.

Women generally do not stare at men. They glance at guys they like and flirt with them but "staring" is a pretty masculine thing to do. Men are very visual and sorta more straight forward / simple (no offense)... it's like "that 25 yr old girl is sexy" and they just sorta stare. Women generally don't do that unless it's a special circumstance, like a rockstar or a movie star. They are more subtle, flirt and pay attention to him and glance sure but not staring like an autie.

I can't recall ever staring at anyone I have found attractive but men do this regularly to me.

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rox - Rape is one of... (Below threshold)

October 27, 2010 12:59 AM | Posted, in reply to rox's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

rox -
Rape is one of the few things in life that is pretty binary. If your partner keeps saying no, but you overpower them or drug them and have sex with them anyway, it's rape.
If she (or he) does not say no, or if he or she says no but then stops and goes along with the sexual activity suggesting passive submission, that is not rape. It may feel like rape to the person who lacks the self esteem and capacity to assert themselves enough to say "no" firmly, but your partner cannot be called a rapist because you have a problem with your ego (having no capacity to assert yourself and demand respect and to tell a man to stop if you don't want to have sex). That's just not his problem, sorry. He may be a motherf*cker bastard in hell for singling out women with low self esteem who are easily coerced into sex... but he isn't a rapist. It is not rape to coerce a weak woman into sex, just like it is not theft for a shitty electronics company to sell you a lemon of an air conditioner in the middle of july. It sucks, and they are bastards, but it isn't the same thing as theft. You had options, you were not forced, you could have insisted and firmly said no but you passively gave up and went with it.

If you DO firmly keep saying no and he refuses to listen, that is rape.

It sounds like a lot of the women you work with weren't really raped, were sexually exploited perhaps, and need some kind of therapy to learn how to assert themselves and say NO.

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The idea that you keep sayi... (Below threshold)

October 27, 2010 1:02 AM | Posted, in reply to someone's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

The idea that you keep saying I, or any woman, wants to manipulate you, is a fucking joke. I am so sure you are an ugly, underemployed, bigtime loser, so what could any woman want with you? As i said in my previous post, most women in your locality are probably GLAD you spend your days pretending not to see them, and retreat to your computer to jerk off to russian prostitutes.

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Regarding Steve in response... (Below threshold)

October 27, 2010 1:19 AM | Posted, in reply to Steve's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Regarding Steve in response to AnAnon... yea I have to agree it does sound like ego defense. It's clear AnAnon probably doesn't get many if any glances and she's a little butthurt.

It is a simple fact that some people are sexier than others, and sexier people get more attention, better treatment, etc.

A very easy way to tell if people are looking at you because you are attractive, or if people are looking at you because you look freakish: if you notice that the opposite sex is doing 95% of the looking, odds are this indicates you are attractive.

There is also a very specific look you get when someone finds you attractive, it's like a fixated hypnotized gaze... and depending on how well socialized is the gazer, it can last either a moment or several seconds.
Sometimes I don't even know when people are looking at me and thinking I am attractive. I only know when I get the "Hypnotized gaze", if I don't get that sort of glance I can't always be certain what they are thinking. Seeing as I am not a ridiculous egocentric narcissist, I don't assume every single glance means anything... I only know the "hypnotized" glance definitely does. There were times men looked at me and I didn't think anything of it, but shortly after the man would approach me and pay me complements (sounds creepy right? Yea it is creepy) so it only goes to show that I don't always know what other people/men are thinking.
I only 100% know what the "hypnotized" gaze means because it is so obvious. It's like the eyes are dead like a psychotic and they are powerless but to stare, whether for a split second or more.

Anyway, rambling... this is an excessively long and elaborate way of saying something basic: if 95% of the people looking at you are members of the opposite sex, and if we logically know most people are heterosexual, that indicates you are attractive.

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I think you and others are ... (Below threshold)

October 27, 2010 1:26 AM | Posted, in reply to inarticulate in the city's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

I think you and others are being too hard on this kid.

As I said before, we don't even know if he was even thinking about this girl. He may have noticed she was attractive but that doesn't make him a narcissistic roving sex freak like he has been described as. Maybe he is a decent kid who has a girlfriend and thought "that girl is pretty" and nothing further. Maybe he is a decent kid withou a girlfriend who is too nervous and awkward to have the courage to talk to her. That doesn't make him a monster just because he is shy and not socially successful. This boy didn't demonstrate the vitriol of "someone" or "anonymouse" or any of the other antisocial, autie, narcissistic, chronically masturbating teen thai prostitute abusing freaks on here. There actually are some normal boys and girls who are shy and don't have the presence of self to "audition" as you say.

Maybe alone/hedgemage/others are right, maybe the kid is just a self centered consumer looking for a screw and he is too much of an inept failed narcissistic to even do it right. But it really would take a lot of creative thinking to SAY this is the reality, because there is no evidence for it what so ever.

I don't hate or shame people for social failure, why would anyone? Do you hate or shame people for not being good at basketball or for having any other atypical traits?

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Anon 10:40 - I don't think ... (Below threshold)

October 27, 2010 1:32 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Anon 10:40 - I don't think women should be expected to lock their windows at night. Do you lock your windows at night? I like a cool breeze. It is possible a rapist could come in through the window, but that is ridiculous, RIDICULOUSLY excessively fearful. None of the homes in my neighborhood have bars over their windows. Will I be the lone freak to put them up ? I live in a decent neighborhood. If I lived in the ghetto, however, the bars might be necessary.

It is unfortunate your friends were raped, but it is not realistic to expect women to live in fear. It's a shame being a reproductive aged woman makes you at risk for this sort of assault, but I"m not about to live like that. I suppose I am gambling, but then again, living is gambling. Every time you make a choice to get into your car, you are HOPING you don't run into a car full of drunk high school students.
With that said, I REFUSE to lock my windows at night and I take the chance I may be attacked. If I am attacked, that does not make me stupid or careless, it just makes me unfortunate and unlucky. I doubt locking my windows could have prevented it anyway. Odds are those women were being FOLLOWED and WATCHED and STALKED by this rapist. The rapist knew their patterns and knew when to strike.

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"With that said, I REFUSE t... (Below threshold)

October 27, 2010 2:51 AM | Posted by G: | Reply

"With that said, I REFUSE to lock my windows at night and I take the chance I may be attacked. If I am attacked, that does not make me stupid or careless, it just makes me unfortunate and unlucky."

I made the reply about my two women friends in the hope that another woman like them might be saved.

I doubt that you are stupid, but you are definitely stubborn, unrealistic and in denial. You are a prime candidate for the Darwin Award. Do you not understand that you too could be followed, watched and stalked.

Do I lock my windows? You better believe it. Do I live in a nice place? I do; a nice place in a quiet town where two other woman, out walking at night, were attacked and raped within three blocks of our place, in this last year.

The race is not always to the swift; the battle not always to the strong - but time and circumstance happen to us all.

I hope you will stop tempting fate.

And get a fan!

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"If she (or he) does not sa... (Below threshold)

October 27, 2010 9:35 AM | Posted by rox: | Reply

"If she (or he) does not say no, or if he or she says no but then stops and goes along with the sexual activity suggesting passive submission, that is not rape"

That doesn't sound as binary as you originally claimed. What constitutes passive submission if a woman has already said no? If she curls up in a ball and cries is that suffestive that she wants to "go along with it"?

If she says yes and then she says no and they physically fight and she has bruises on her hands, what was that?

Unfortunately, these things are more complicated to determine than that. I agree with you there is a difference between rape and coerced sex, but the line is not as clear as either anti-rape activists, or rape apoligists would like, in my experience.

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"The idea that you keep say... (Below threshold)

October 27, 2010 12:04 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by someone: | Reply

"The idea that you keep saying I, or any woman, wants to manipulate you, is a fucking joke."

It's reality.

"I am so sure you are an ugly, underemployed, bigtime loser, so what could any woman want with you? As i said in my previous post, most women in your locality are probably GLAD you spend your days pretending not to see them, and retreat to your computer to jerk off to russian prostitutes."

Oh look, more nonsensical feminist shaming language that isn't based on anything at all. You're just trying to draw attention away from the fact that I am right and you are wrong.

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Alright, how about we all q... (Below threshold)

October 27, 2010 5:08 PM | Posted by ThePedanticGooFromSpace: | Reply

Alright, how about we all quit jumping on other people like rabid dogs? Sound good? I'm talking especially about the comments directed at Someone. He's insulting too, to be sure, but at least he's not taking random stabs in the dark in the hope of drawing blood.

Anyway, my stance is just this: that if someone (lower-case) is really just not interested in sex at all and never has been, then yeah, that could be a symptom of some deeper issue, but the bottom line is that they're still not interested in sex at all and never have been. I've met people like that, guys and girls, and I don't have the ability to get into their heads and figure out what's "really" going on. I find it's easier - not to mention much more respectful - to just take people like that at their word. Someone like that is already acculturated by a society that largely assumes people will be straight and gives only a hazy demi-acceptance to gays, and I really don't feel like it would be constructive to put my two cents in. This is what makes it a different matter. The point is moot, anyway.

What is relevant is this: if Someone is just in a place in his life where he's not interested in looking for sex, even if he's otherwise interested, then I can certainly understand that. It would fit the idea of "not being involved in the 'sexual marketplace.'" For my part, I've pretty much had to hold off on any kind of dating until I finish my education. I've tried, but women just want more attention than I can provide between work and school. I understand that there are supposedly exceptions, but I haven't met one yet and I'm not convinced it's worth my effort to try right now. I won't be in school forever.

For all that, there's still going to be a time when I go back to looking again. That's the difference between a phase and swearing off women completely. So even if someone is just going through a phase where they're not interested in looking, then things like "cockblocking and getting laid" would eventually come up, and would be of interest to Someone, no matter how he gets back into the sexual marketplace.

For example, someone who's looking for a relationship and not a lay still has to know the social mores about lays. It's the only way to tell who's out there looking for a lay and not a relationship. Or to avoid a mishap where their actions are misconstrued.

To Someone's own football analogy: the knowledge that goes into watching football is of no interest to someone not watching football. But let's say someone plays fantasy football and stops for a while. Anything that happens in the phase where they've stopped for a while - say the fantasy football league's rules change - is still relevant for when they start again. They can get up to speed when they come back to playing, or they can keep their eye on things like that without playing, but they have to learn what they need to do to play the game eventually.

Unlike fantasy football, contact with the opposite sex is unavoidable to everyone save hermits and monks. People should concern themselves with things like this because they're part of the same society as the sex(es) that they're interested in, and that society will have expectations whether one wants to do what's expected or not. Especially sexual people with no sex lives - it just works out that way.

I submit this comment thread as proof of that. Just think of how different the responses would be if Someone had said he wasn't interested in all that because he's an 80-year-old married dude! I imagine he'd still be attacked, but for completely different things.

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Thank you - amidst a deluge... (Below threshold)

October 28, 2010 6:48 AM | Posted, in reply to Wino's comment, by Z. Constantine: | Reply

Thank you - amidst a deluge of the very lunacy you described, that comment made me laugh...

... but I'm still ordering up some bear mace for the next time a crack addict follows me down an alley singing a Right Said Fred tune.

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So, how should he have hand... (Below threshold)

October 28, 2010 3:52 PM | Posted, in reply to Jim's comment, by svr: | Reply

So, how should he have handled it?

You want to meet a girl and drinks are available: bar rules apply. You don't take up residence next to her, you do it away from her. Their eyes always meet ~across~ the bar, because up to that point he's not acting stalkery and weird. Then you don't sit there ogling her, you buy her a latte (or a scone if she already has one), walk it right over and drop it off. "I thought I'd buy you a drink/scone. If you want to chat, I'll be at that table over there pretending to read a magazine for a few minutes." Then you smile, and unless she invites you to sit right away, walk back to your table and do exactly what you said you'd do: pretend to read a magazine for a few minutes, and then get up, give her an acknowledgement if she notices, and leave. If you're swinging for the fences, you drop a napkin at her table that says: "If you change your mind, I'm Bob - 505-555-1234"

Women complain men don't approach them. Too many hot women complain about this. Men that approach women complain that, though women say this, they don't want to be approached. The reason is that the only men that approach women are the kind that don't know how to make them not feel uncomfortable.

In the little one-act play above, you limit her discomfort to just a few minutes at worst, compensate her for the inconvenience with a latte, and then make yourself scarce. You can reverse it if you want to minimize the wait window to zero, just before you leave, drop by her table with the latte and the napkin and then poof, you're outta there.

Men always imagine the worst going on in the woman's head, but the impression you make will guide that internal dialog. If it's not gonna happen, her internal dialog will be all about how your putting her on the spot, inconveniencing her, etc. If it is gonna happen, she'll be seeing the whole interaction from your perspective, and how you're putting yourself out there, not hers.

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Good God. Have any of you ... (Below threshold)

October 29, 2010 1:57 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Good God. Have any of you men ever talked to a real girl?

Here's an idea. Maybe the girl wasn't trying not to notice the guy. Maybe she just didn't give a shit that some pompous dickbag sat next to her expecting to be noticed. Maybe she did notice and decided her book was more interesting and was able to forget about Mr. Can't-Take-A-Hint and enjoy her book. MAYBE, just MAYBE, she didn't notice anyone because she was reading a good book and doesn't have the attention span of a squirrel.

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Seems like there's an assum... (Below threshold)

October 29, 2010 11:46 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Seems like there's an assumption about why the guy was there in the first place and why he couldn't focus on his reading.

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Or maybe the guy wasn't doi... (Below threshold)

October 30, 2010 5:31 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by someone: | Reply

Or maybe the guy wasn't doing anything except sitting down and reading a book, and you are imagining things because your ego is out of control.

If being in the vicinity of a woman makes a man a pompous dickbag, then what does talking to her make him? A rapist?

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It is safe to say that if a... (Below threshold)

October 31, 2010 12:07 AM | Posted, in reply to rox's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

It is safe to say that if a woman tells a man "no" and tries to push him away from her, and eventually gives up and starts crying, reverting to a fetal position, in this instance this is clearly rape. Crying (indicating displeasure/discomfort/fear) combined with a fetal position (indicating self defense/protection) is a strong non-verbal sign of fear and aversion. This is particularly true if she was originally saying no multiple times.

"No" doesn't just mean words, pushing and fighting is also "no". Crying and self protective behavior is also "no". It's very obvious when someone is saying no.

This isn't what I was referencing originally... I was referencing cases where the woman DOES NOT EXPRESS herself at all. Meaning, inside her head she is thinking "I really don't want to do this help" but she lacks the self esteem to either verbally or non-verbally resist. She feels raped, but that is not rape, because the man cannot know what she is thinking and he might be too much of an asshole to care. It sounds like a lot of the women you work with were in this situation... this is not rape and it is not proper to call it rape. Your ego deficiency is not other people's problem and it isn't right to label men rapists because a girl lacks the ability to say "get the fuck off of me". I'm not blaming her for this, but I WILL blame her if she tries to get that guy convicted of rape. It's not his fault you are a weak person.

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Same anon as a bove...... (Below threshold)

October 31, 2010 12:22 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Same anon as a bove...

With all that said, I understand a woman can walk away from a sexual encounter feeling emotionally damaged. However, as a society we REALLY need to separate "bad sexual experiences" from "rape". There is a big difference. If a woman as described above has self esteem and ego problems and cannot protect herself from sexual exploitation that is not the same thing as being a rape victim. A rape victim tried to fight and resist , or alternatively a rape victim was drugged and had no chance to fight or resist. It is a very different thing to be overpowered and violated, vs being "wishy washy" in expressing yourself, as you put it, due to a lack of a firm ego and boundaries. It's just so totally not the same thing.

such women should seek counciling so they stop feeling victimized and exploited, so in the future they can prevent bad experiences from happening to them...but I don't think it is approprate to encourage the idea that they are rape victims. A rape victim was overpowered, dominated, they could NOT have done anything to stop the attack. A weak willed person who has a bad experience sexually was not overpowered, or dominated, and persistence in saying "no" firmly would have ended it. FEELING dominated vs BEING dominated are two very different things. I may feel dominated by a coworker or a boss, but am I REALLY? No, I'm not. At any time I want I can stand up to my boss, or i can quit. It's not the same domination a person experiences when they do all they can to fight back but are overpowered anyway.

The difference is this: rape is being overpowered by someone else... sexual exploitation/bad sexual experience/cooerced sex is being overpowered by yourself.

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Sup, Ironman. Long time no ... (Below threshold)

October 31, 2010 5:14 AM | Posted, in reply to Aurini's comment, by RCGT: | Reply

Sup, Ironman. Long time no read.

I'll have to say I can see both sides of this. I've been that guy, sitting there with no fucking social consciousness, wondering what the fuck to do, wishing the girl would just talk to me. But nowadays I have some pretense of a clue and creepiness makes me cringe just like anyone else.

No, you can't blame the guy for being awkward. Yes, you can blame him for not trying to fix the problem. Talking about narcissism - no, the problem can't be me and my lack of social skills! It must be those fucking women! Or, alternatively: it's those fucking girls who rejected me in middle school! They made me socially awkward!

When of course, if you go out and actually make an effort to learn social skills (you know, like everything else in life) instead of expecting social graces to fall into your lap, things become a lot different.

I won't pretend I don't still struggle with these issues, but I can tell I'm getting better all the time. And that is a huge motivator.

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" It sounds like a lot of t... (Below threshold)

October 31, 2010 12:02 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

" It sounds like a lot of the women you work with were in this situation..."

I really fail to grasp how you think you have enough information to make that assesment. Women who have experienced abuse tend to have a freeze response. They might say no, or they might curl up in a ball and cry, but they might find it very difficult to fight back with significant physical force. If you can tell a guy is thinking about hurting you (and yes many guys who aren't rapists are all about what kind of uncomfortable/painful acts they can get away with on a woman) and you internally/visibly shrink and cower, you might find that guy later cornering you and pushing himself on you, knowing that you will shrink even if you say no or curl up and a ball and cry. They can likely also read that you may have been raped in the past and not reported it, otherwise you wouldn't cower the same way because you would be thinking, "Go for it dude. If I survive you will fucking pay" rather than "I'm going to die inside because of what's going to happen"

Guys (of the predatory sort) can read when there is a girl that they can likely get away with forcing sex/raping without repercussion.

I don't see where you're getting this is black and white. Why would I have mentioned "curl up in a ball and cry" or "physically fight back but after going along with it" if that wasn't exactly the kinds of situations I'm talking about?

You stated both that "in that situation it would be rape" and then followed that up with "but the women you know weren't raped"
Maybe you shouldn't jump to conclusion without knowing facts. I have met many people who would never have pushed charges in million years that were in fact raped.

I disagree with people who say there is no gray area because there is. Otherwise women would feel confident to report this stuff. Often there's "Yeah he totally raped me up the ass while I tried to fight his mother fucking wimpy ass off me, but I was drunk, not pushing charges" or "Yeah I was raped but I must have lead him on by going to his house"

Most women I know don't want to push charges when stuff like this happens unless it's straight up stranger/vague acquantance rape that involved physical brutality.

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Rox, you keep talking about... (Below threshold)

November 1, 2010 12:08 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Rox, you keep talking about stuff that has nothing to do with the original discussion.

These were your OWN words:

" This is further complicated by the fact that many women give a wishy washy no like, "I'm not ready for this" (Guys hear-you need me to help you get ready) or "Look I don't want to do this" (Guys hear-you're conflicted and you need me to help push through your obstacles) and a straight up no is followed by something like, "I think you do". If as a woman you're cowering and shrinking, you need more than words, you have to MOVE. If you physically move away before you're completely overpowered, you've ended it. It doesn't require kung fu skills so much as being willing to fight your own insticts to shut down and cower and handle the situation "nicely"."

What you describe above, such "wishy washy" statements of denial leading into sex... sorry that is her fault and that is not rape. That is coercion. This is the only argument I have made, for some reason you keep going left of center with your anecdotes about drunk girls being overpowered into sodomy (which is clearly rape, if someone is forcing you to do something).

The reason girls do not want to report date-rape situations is because they are afraid it makes them look like a slut. No one blames a girl who is abducted in the park by a black guy, but we all suspect the girl who is raped by her best friend while she was drunk...s he may have been a cock teasing whore. Many assholeish people don't even believe date rape exists (well if you associate with a man you should expect for him to demand sex, right?)
This isn't a "gray area" as you say, this is irrelevant info we are construing as relevant. There is never an excuse for anyone to overpower you and violate you, ever. Whether or not you are drinking or going to his house has nothing to do with it... this doesn't mean you should abdicate personal responsibility (i.e. don't dress slutty and tease guys who may be dangerous and don't put yourself in dangerous situations)... but it has no baring what so ever on whether or not someone violates you. It's still rape. It's like when in grade school they would give you word problems in math and your task was to ignore the irrelevant fucking info and figure out the problem at hand. It's exactly like that. NO man ever has a right to force you into sex, if you are hitting, punching, screaming, crying, etc.
She may also personally internalize these ideas and blame herself if her husband, boyfriend, friend or date rapes her.

The "gray area" isn't the reason date rape goes underreported... it's the moral stigma attached to it.

Rape is binary and I don't care what you say. Your previous statements did seem to confuse coerced sex with rape. If you give a wishy-washy no and don't want to have sex, that's your responsibility to take care of yourself and fight back and it doesn't mean you are raped if you lack the esteem to stick up for yourself.

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Most women, before they've ... (Below threshold)

November 1, 2010 8:50 AM | Posted by rox: | Reply

Most women, before they've realized how pushy and horrible fucking evil men are (oops sorry *some*)--

Think that when they say "I don't want to do this" it means "I don't want to do this." Sure they might be thinking they might want to do it at some point, but they aren't ready. In guys minds they tend to think, "Ok... so you need, 2 minutes? thirty seconds?" Women are usually thinking not on this occasion. If a guy is on top of you "making his moves" and you're saying, "Look I can't do this" a guy should stop.

Legally, if a woman says no, it's rape. I'm sorry if you're into doing this to women and you want some validation with that or something or standing by your rapist male brethren in solidarity or whatever but it doesn't matter if a no "sounds" wishy washy.

Earlier you said we can't expect men to read minds right? Why is it ok for him to keep having sex with her even if he suspects she is scared and can't handle it (but he's not a mind reader so she has to SAY something!)--- however if she says no but it sounds like she "might be wanting him to over ride her no"

he is suddenly allowed to read her mind and that's ok? She said no dude, I sympathize with the fact that some women might skrew up a nice sexy time by saying no when they didn't mean it, but you need to stop anyway.

If a woman is saying "I can't handle this" and she means it and she's freaking out and the guys on top of her helping "push through her resistance" and she's curling up in a ball and trying to disappear--- that's not cool. Why are you defending shite like that?

You are such a not cool guy and you're reminding why men are evil. Dammit I mean *some* men.

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Most women, before they've ... (Below threshold)

November 1, 2010 8:55 AM | Posted by rox: | Reply

Most women, before they've realized how pushy and horrible fucking evil men are (oops sorry *some*)--

Think that when they say "I don't want to do this" it means "I don't want to do this." Sure they might be thinking they might want to do it at some point, but they aren't ready. In guys minds they tend to think, "Ok... so you need, 2 minutes? thirty seconds?" Women are usually thinking not on this occasion. If a guy is on top of you "making his moves" and you're saying, "Look I can't do this" a guy should stop.

Legally, if a woman says no, it's rape. I'm sorry if you're into doing this to women and you want some validation with that or something or standing by your rapist male brethren in solidarity or whatever but it doesn't matter if a no "sounds" wishy washy.

Earlier you said we can't expect men to read minds right? Why is it ok for him to keep having sex with her even if he suspects she is scared and can't handle it (but he's not a mind reader so she has to SAY something!)--- however if she says no but it sounds like she "might be wanting him to over ride her no"

he is suddenly allowed to read her mind and that's ok? She said no dude, I sympathize with the fact that some women might skrew up a nice sexy time by saying no when they didn't mean it, but you need to stop anyway.

If a woman is saying "I can't handle this" and she means it and she's freaking out and the guys on top of her helping "push through her resistance" and she's curling up in a ball and trying to disappear--- that's not cool. Why are you defending shite like that?

You are such a not cool guy and you're reminding why men are evil. Dammit I mean *some* men.

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My original point is that t... (Below threshold)

November 1, 2010 9:54 AM | Posted by rox: | Reply

My original point is that those "wishy washy" situations are usually what lead up to rape. You still haven't invalidated that point. Once is guy is on top of you, "fighting back" doesn't work the same as if he's accross the room. However most guys don't suddenly charge from accross the room and yell, "I'm going to rape you! AHA!"

They find a way to get physically close if possible in a way that seems "platonic" at first and then when they use mind fuck games to get a woman in a position where it's very difficult to physically fight back. ninja skills would pretty good if you've identified an attacker coming at you, but my point is that if you're underneath someone that's physically bigger than you, you will have a really hard time getting away.

The ways that a person tries to get a woman underneath them before she knows what's coming to her are very similar to coercive sex and that is usually the intent. Rape happens when a woman says no, or physically pulls away from the coercive sex (which to me includes saying "I don't want to do this" but apparently men feel this is an invitation to force sex in their minds legally, but fortunately not in the eyes of the law;) and the man continues.

In order for it to be rape vs coercive sex, yes the woman needs to give visible/verbal no. Considering many men don't understand that a woman saying she doesn't want to have sex "doesn't actually mean no", it explains why it's so easy for them to push sex on an unwilling participant.

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If you haven't been raped, ... (Below threshold)

November 1, 2010 12:54 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

If you haven't been raped, your definition of rape is strictly cerebral, not actual. So until then, you can argue over how the word is legally defined, but not what rape really is and isn't. You have no fucking idea.

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If you're referring to me, ... (Below threshold)

November 1, 2010 2:16 PM | Posted by rox: | Reply

If you're referring to me, yes I have experienced rape. I've also experienced coerced sex and lot's of things that sucked. I will never know if that was just "the path I was destined for" due just being messed up, or if the events that happened when I was young set it in motion.

I made bad choices, and that sucked for me. I have a number of experiences that fit into a gray area (to me). I know a lot of other women who feel like they have had experiences that are in a gray area.

The description of why every situation is binary and simple to determine doesn't make any sense to me.

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It was a comment about the ... (Below threshold)

November 1, 2010 9:00 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

It was a comment about the nature of the discussion, not about you....
but further, it seems (superficially, at least) you have some self-blame issues to work out, which is understandable. regardless of your choices, you never, ever, ever, deserve to be raped.

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Rox, Ok, lets just... (Below threshold)

November 2, 2010 12:55 AM | Posted, in reply to rox's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Rox,

Ok, lets just frame this another way. I just find it hard to imagine how any woman could get themselves in this situation where she doesn't want to have sex - where she is truly 100% horrified at the prospect - where if she has sex, it will feel like rape to her... yet she finds it impossible to fight back. I can understand if she were drugged, drunk, but if I WERE IN that situation, where a "platonic friend" or a "boss" or any man for that matter was trying to coerce me into sex, and if I felt that way about it (that having sex with this person would feel like rape), and if he refused to listen to a "no i don't want to do this", at that point I would probably start kicking, screaming, crying, doing everything I could do to get him off me. It would be BEYOND CLEAR it was rape, and there would be NO DOUBT he was raping me. When I imagine that situation, I can't imagine NOT reacting in an obvious way that made it clear I didn't want this.

I just find it hard to understand this... where the woman isn't drugged, doesn't resist much, but yet claims she is raped. I mean. As a human being your adrenaline should kick in, if you really don't want this guy on you, if you really feel violated terrified and horrified at the prospect of sex with this person... how can you NOT react in some way? Even something as passive as shaking and crying inconsolably? I understand not all women will respond by violent protest, but I imagine all raped women, during the act, will have some kind of obvious reaction of fear and aversion, with the exception of women who have been drugged somehow so that their reaction is blunted or non-existent.


It is clear given your history this is a sensitive topic for you and I suppose I shouldn't be arguing this with you...for me it is purely another topic of discussion like Charlie Sheen. I have never been raped.

I mean, you do seem to be confusing coerced sex, and you do seem to be blaming the man for the faults of the woman. You are assuming this man KNOWS how you feel inside (that sex with him is terrifying, horrifying, violating) when for all practical purposes he may just be attracted to you and doesn't know how you feel... he may have thought he was sending you all these signals and is making a move. I mean, unless you express yourself (by crying, screaming, kicking, by repeatedly saying "no get off of me you creep, you bastard!") how can he REALLY know?

Anecdotes about obvious rapes - semiconscious drunk girl held down and sodomized (obviously rape, nothing about sodomizing a drunk female is remotely like consensual sex)... or a girl who cowers in a fetal position crying while a man proceeds to rape her... this really isn't at all like "saying no a few times, and then having sex with a guy without further resistance".

It is true a lot of women may be ambivalent about sex, for whatever reasons (she works with him, they both have other partners in committed relationships)... but then she may eventually proceed to have consensual sex with a man. So, how can we KNOW the guy intended to rape her, if she never really firmly resisted?

I am not trying to be a jerk, and I know this is a personal topic for you...

I guess I'll just drop it.

I suppose the sticking point for me... I Just can't imagine how this could happen. How does a girl truly feel like sex with someone is like rape: so abhorrent, horrifying, terrifying, soul-destroying to contemplate, yet she only minimally resists? I just can't see how that could happen in real life. I imagine such a girl must be profoundly psychologically dysfunctional. If I felt that way, and that person was inching toward me, I would make it BEYOND CLEAR I didn't want him near me.

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"saying no a few times, and... (Below threshold)

November 2, 2010 9:50 AM | Posted by rox: | Reply

"saying no a few times, and then having sex with a guy without further resistance".

You quoted something I didn't say. Ok so you don't understand rape. That's cool, but don't put words in my mouth. I never said that a woman wouldn't cry or curl up in a ball if a guy overrides her no and keeps on going. That would be a normal response.

According to some research,
" The same team also found that rapists tend to be more able than average to interpret facial cues, such as a downward gaze or a fearful expression. It's possible this skill makes rapists especially able to spot passive, submissive women. One study even showed that rapists are more empathetic toward women than other criminals-although they have a distinct empathy gap when it comes to their own victims. "

You don't have the mark. which is awesome. If you're scared of guys, predators can read that like no bodies business. Nice guys will back off because you're obviously scared. Whose left?

This kind of thing happens to a lot of women with past CSA, abuse in childhood, or who start having sex young with older guys. The dynamic is wacky and scary and makes all sex seem scary. And then you're scared. And then they read you. And they know you'll just cry and re-experience trauma and likely dissociate from reality and dissappear as is common for women who have adjusted to living with continuing traumatic experience (men and women rather).

I know you don't know this dynamic which is good. You aren't likely to be targeted for this because you project "If I don't want you near me I will damn well let you know"

If you just project "I'm scared and I hurt inside, please don't hurt me, I beg you not to hurt me"

Whose gonna come hang out with you? The report that rapists are more empathetic toward women? There are some people who were very kind hearted and I would never have thought. They ask you how you feel and what you're afraid of. Building the inner workings of how to break you. But they don't have to ask questions. They can read you're scared of men.

"But studies show that it is women with passive, submissive personalities who are most likely to be raped-and that they tend to wear body-concealing clothing, such as high necklines, long pants and sleeves, and multiple layers. Predatory men can accurately identify submissive women just by their style of dress and other aspects of appearance. The hallmarks of submissive body language, such as downward gaze and slumped posture, may even be misinterpreted by rapists as flirtation."


If you're minding your business trying to hide, who'se going to come "see how you're doing". Actually reading that is really sad, clothing is not protection. For a lot of us we really want it to be. : (

Wearing more "sexy clothing" actually indicates that a woman is used to sexual advances from men and likely comfortable with saying yes or no and being assertive.

Once you've got the mark, you spend a shit of a time getting rid or it.

Some women might not have had the mark and have one scary experience that leaves them more scared and vulnerable feeling. This could shift how they project themselves and then something else happens and they're terrified and now you've the mark.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200812/marked-mayhem

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"I just find it hard to ima... (Below threshold)

November 2, 2010 3:51 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

"I just find it hard to imagine how any woman could get themselves in this situation where she doesn't want to have sex - where she is truly 100% horrified at the prospect - where if she has sex, it will feel like rape to her... yet she finds it impossible to fight back."

That's creepy as shit.

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Freezing is a common human ... (Below threshold)

November 2, 2010 5:17 PM | Posted by rox: | Reply

Freezing is a common human response to sexual assault. I tried to pull up some research for you but it genuinely hurts me to read about it though I truly hope you will read the article I linked below. Tonic immobility occurs in many species in response to predators. Sexual assualt is the highest cause of this happening in humans. Predators know how to elicit a freeze response. Many women if caught off gaurd with someone they trusted as platonic touching them innapropriately might be more frightened than you would think. But yes, past factors play a huge role in it.

http://spry.uoregon.edu/~jjf/articles/freydjury2008.pdf

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(I am not the anonymous tha... (Below threshold)

November 2, 2010 6:46 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

(I am not the anonymous that has been discussing this with Rox.)

Rox,
Your comments (here and elsewhere) are admirable. I agree, and believe, that freezing is a common response to sexual assault, especially in those who have been abused in the past. I also believe that, as you point out, human predators have a high ability to spot those who are frightened or passive. However, there are also men who are just assholes - self-centered, opportunistic or uncaring. They are not predators, they're just selfish or domineering.

Anyone, unless they are drugged, has the ability to say a simple "No. I do not want this." Men should take that as the clear no that it clearly is - and if they continue, it is absolutely rape. They shouldn't have to scream, or cry, or try to kill the man - all they have to say is a clear, NO, I do not want this. If she says this, it is 100% rape in my mind.

But it isn't fair to try to prosecute a guy for rape when the woman did not even indicate verbally or physically that she was not consenting. I know there are sad and deeply rooted reasons why women who have been abused, in particular, might have trouble doing this - but it is not right to change the law for everyone.

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"I don't know if I can do t... (Below threshold)

November 2, 2010 6:52 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"I don't know if I can do this" or "Maybe it's not a good idea" IS NOT "No."

No is "No," or "I do not want this," or, "Get off me," or, "I do not consent."

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I do not believe that men s... (Below threshold)

November 2, 2010 8:06 PM | Posted by rox: | Reply

I do not believe that men should be persecuted for having sex with somone who gave no indication they were having a freeze response.

Can you point to where I said this? My point was exactly that it's gray and confusing. There wouldn't be an entire genre of criminal law dedicated to hashing out all of these complex issues if it were simple and binary. We wouldn't be having this discussion if it were simple and binary.

The problem of women's tendency to resist passively and without force is a huge problem in determining rape or not rape. It makes it very confusing. When I say it's confusing that does not indicate that I believe men should be persecuted for gray area stuff, nor should they not. That would be up to a court to determine because it's very case specific.

But it IS difficult to determine if you had a passive resistance, how valid was your resistance? It's a matter of degree and rape apologists tend to think if there was any gray it was automatically not rape (because there is no gray) and anti-rape advocates tend to think if there is any gray it was automatically rape (because there is no gray).

But the fact that women's resistence is very often passive is also the biggest area that women could train themselves to prevent rape by being assertive and physically fighting back instead of crying or curling up in a ball or freezing, or saying please stop, all of which are common responses to sexual assault.

The fact that a woman responds by crying or curling up in a ball or freezing does not (necessarily) mean it wasn't rape, it just means women can learn to respond differently and prevent these situations happening, or even end them once they've begun.

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"This isn't what I was refe... (Below threshold)

November 2, 2010 10:38 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"This isn't what I was referencing originally... I was referencing cases where the woman DOES NOT EXPRESS herself at all. Meaning, inside her head she is thinking "I really don't want to do this help" but she lacks the self esteem to either verbally or non-verbally resist. She feels raped, but that is not rape, because the man cannot know what she is thinking and he might be too much of an asshole to care"

So we were talking about two different things then. You are describing coercive sex. I was describing real situations wherin the woman resisted passively and then started crying/curled up in a fetal position and the sex continued/ physically fought back and was held down.

So I wasn't clear.

"Look I don't want to do this"
"What you describe above, such "wishy washy" statements of denial leading into sex... sorry that is her fault and that is not rape"
No I was describe passive resistance that then resulted in rape. Does that clarify? I apologize for not continuing what happened next and why those situations can be related to rape. However "I do not want to do this" to some people is a very clear message that a person doesn't want to do this. To many people, that's not wishy washy.

I agree with you coercive sex exists and is different than rape. Determining which is which is obviously complicated or we wouldn't all have differing opinions on which is which. What are you arguing about exactly?

If a woman does not express herself at all, then of course that would not be rape. I have never said that would be.

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Fuck off and take your misa... (Below threshold)

November 3, 2010 3:52 AM | Posted, in reply to rox's comment, by someone: | Reply

Fuck off and take your misandry with you.

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Someone - You're a fool. Wh... (Below threshold)

November 3, 2010 10:03 AM | Posted, in reply to someone's comment, by AnAnon: | Reply

Someone - You're a fool. Why? Because you rail on about how a woman writer you disagree with is being sexist, how victimized you are because you're a man, and what a bad thing it is when you're being continually sexist yourself - pot meet kettle. You want to be seen as a person with intrinsic value as a human and not just an object, yet you continually actually objectify yourself and others. You're really doing all of this to yourself, you're trapped by your own beliefs in what is obviously a rather unpleasant experience. Unless that's all a game and you're really just a masochist who enjoys playing victim and trying to incite abuse from women. Really, you should just pay a professional for that or find someone who likes your particular fetish. Free your mind and your ass will follow. Or do you hate our freedoms?

You're being just as foolish as a misandrist because you're acting almost exactly the same - misogyny and misandry are sort of the same...well, apart from the fact that our society just happens to be patriarchal and some poor dudes who would never, at any time in the history of partriarchal cultures, have been successful alpha males. You like to think it's women oppressing you but the reality is that even two centuries ago there would have been women who had more power than you (patriarchal systems are about hierarchy, the structure, more than "men in charge"...they view everyone, men included, as being objects to be used...even those born kings and queens). But, hey, the people who really do consider you totally expendable need you hating on and blaming women - just like inciting racial distrust and conflict can be useful for distracting the masses - that way you'll never become politically and socially aware enough to actually challenge the people who really do have some power. Of course, making women or some particular ethnic group your target is safer.

You're like a wanna-be Andrea Dworkin - it's really rather sad. Or are you just a religious fundie of some sort? Born Again Christian perhaps? Fundamentalist Muslim who "hates our freedom"? Why do people into religion always claim to be victims while running around persecuting others?

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Alarm bells should always s... (Below threshold)

November 3, 2010 11:04 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Alarm bells should always start going off when you hear someone say "You hate freedom!".

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I've hung out with a lot of... (Below threshold)

November 3, 2010 12:31 PM | Posted by rox: | Reply

I've hung out with a lot of openly misogynistic dudes and they say the same stuff you do someone. So why is misandry not ok, but misogyny is? Honestly if you've been hurt by women then I understand you being suspicious, distrustful, and resentful toward women. Personally, if I experienced a situation that seemed gray to me I would never push charges. Getting charged with rape or assualt seriously fucks up someones life. Unless you are damn sure it was rape, it wouldn't make sense to me to push charges.

But I know a lot of women who were obviously raped through no fault of their own (they faught back yelled no, all the right things etc) but feel like it's their fault.

It's experienced as something that's hard to determine because so many people have so many different views of what "real" rape is, and whether or not the woman did something to deserve it. I do think a counter movement to that may be leading some people to consider experiences that were not rape to be rape.


I understand why it's a sensitive topic, if there is a gray area we are talking about the difference of some people who are innocent that could have their whole world destroyed because of such charges, or the posibility of some people who are guilty walking away scott free.

Those are pretty huge differences in outcomes for the exact same situation happening but she said, "I don't want to do this" vs "I don't think I can do this".

One means the guy goes to jail forever and everyone hates him and his life is ruined, and one means everything is fine and nothing bad happened? That doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not sure exactly what your beef is Someone, but I'm sorry you've been treated badly by women. Women can be just as evil as men.

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Your entire comment is comp... (Below threshold)

November 4, 2010 8:46 AM | Posted, in reply to AnAnon's comment, by someone: | Reply

Your entire comment is completely incoherent and nonsensical. Are you on drugs or suffering some kind of mental affliction?

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"I've hung out with a lot o... (Below threshold)

November 4, 2010 8:48 AM | Posted, in reply to rox's comment, by someone: | Reply

"I've hung out with a lot of openly misogynistic dudes and they say the same stuff you do someone."

And what "stuff" is that?

"So why is misandry not ok, but misogyny is?"

Who said misogyny is ok?

The rest of your post is, like AnAnon's, incoherent nonsense. What the hell are you talking about?

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"Most women, before they've... (Below threshold)

November 4, 2010 10:15 AM | Posted by rox: | Reply

"Most women, before they've realized how pushy and horrible fucking evil men are (oops sorry *some*)--"

You might take it from this statement that I am a misandrist but I interjected "some" for a reason. My experiences with men are overwhelmingly bad, however in no way do I think this is the way that all or even most men are.

"Legally, if a woman says no, it's rape. I'm sorry if you're into doing this to women and you want some validation with that or something or standing by your rapist male brethren in solidarity or whatever but it doesn't matter if a no "sounds" wishy washy."

The person I was conversing with (you?) said something that I think I misinterepreted which would make that statement not applicable to that person, as I think they were thinking of a hypothetical situation in which the woman said, "I don't want to do this" and then seemed to respond submissively to the following sexual encounter and I was discribing a situation in which the woman said, "I don't want to do this" and then curled up in a ball and cried. Which I *think* many people here think is rape. It's still gray to me, and personally, like I said, I wouldn't (haven't) push charges for something that seems gray to me.

This entire conversation is really a tangent off the first but I think it must be relevant because so many people seemed to jump to "rape" when reading the original post, which as I already said is an interesting topic unto itself.

The point I wanted to make sure I made clearly (and likely haven't been able to) is that women can prevent sexual exploitation AND rape by paying attention to how they project themselves, refusing to cower if a guy is ogling them, refusing to be passive when their guts are telling them something is wrong, and responding assertively at the first sign that a domineering sexual advance is made whether it's disguised as something innocent or not.

I wish I would have had that information when I was a teen and early twenties and it would have helped me immensely. That point is supported by research about how women attract and respond to sexual assault, and I think it is applicable both to rape and sexual exploitation/coercive sex.

I'm glad that you're not a misogynist and I'm not a misandrist either. Let's not lable each other unnecessarily?

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"You might take it from thi... (Below threshold)

November 4, 2010 11:14 PM | Posted, in reply to rox's comment, by someone: | Reply

"You might take it from this statement that I am a misandrist but I interjected "some" for a reason."

The "some" was obviously sarcastic, so now you're just backpedaling.

"The person I was conversing with (you?)"

I have not talked about this subject at all.

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It was not sarcastic. In my... (Below threshold)

November 5, 2010 10:21 AM | Posted by rox: | Reply

It was not sarcastic. In my experience it has felt like all men want to hurt women. And many want to hurt women and really don't care how that affects the other person at all. I think the idea that all men feel this way is untrue and I put "some" for a reason. Because it only feels that way to me sometimes, but I know that it is not in actuality representative of all males.

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It was a slightly ironic us... (Below threshold)

November 5, 2010 11:18 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by AnAnon: | Reply

It was a slightly ironic use of "they hate our freedom" that was being employed by Someone keeps promoting what amounts to fundamentalist religious viewpoint (shared by both Islamic and Christian Fundamentalists) - though he may not be religious (despite the celibacy and weird attempt to control other people's sexuality), it's just the same narcissistic sense of entitlement that people who are sexist (be they misogynists or misandrists) and those who are religious fundamentalists share.

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Where have I expressed fund... (Below threshold)

November 5, 2010 11:56 AM | Posted, in reply to AnAnon's comment, by someone: | Reply

Where have I expressed fundamentalist religious viewpoints? Where have I attempted to control anyone's sexuality?

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Someone, it's quite interes... (Below threshold)

November 5, 2010 12:46 PM | Posted, in reply to someone's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Someone, it's quite interesting that you're not even aware of how the beliefs you've expressed over and over again in the comment section of so many of TLPs blog posts about sex and women (and men) are rooted in and reflect those of religious fundamentalists.

You've said you're celibate and you've indicated you believe this relates to your personal power.

You've continuously promoted ideas about women and sex (and a fear/hatred of women, and the idea that women can/try to control you through sex) that align perfectly with the fear/hatred of women expressed by religious fundies. Of course, ideologues driven by personal fear/hatred are often blind to themselves and the source of their own ideas because they're busy trying to impose their personal narrative onto the rest of society. It's pretty interesting that you can't even see how aligned you are with Fundies in your beliefs - clearly the beliefs you hold contradict the image you hold of yourself (your self identity) in some way.

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"You've said you're celibat... (Below threshold)

November 6, 2010 2:12 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by someone: | Reply

"You've said you're celibate and you've indicated you believe this relates to your personal power."

How does it relate to my personal power?

"You've continuously promoted ideas about women and sex (and a fear/hatred of women, and the idea that women can/try to control you through sex) that align perfectly with the fear/hatred of women expressed by religious fundies."

Where have I promoted these ideas?

"It's pretty interesting that you can't even see how aligned you are with Fundies in your beliefs."

It's pretty interesting that you make all these claims but can't back them up at all.

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If passive resistance to se... (Below threshold)

November 6, 2010 1:56 PM | Posted by rox: | Reply

If passive resistance to sexual advances such as crying, curling in a ball, pushing away without full force, or having a freeze response mean that any following activity is "not rape"; it's really not as important to me to define whether it is or isn't rape. What's most important is that women learn how to protect themselves from this happening because it's a horrible thing to go through whether it's defined as illegal or not.

When men think in terms of "how bad can I destroy this woman emotionally with sex and not go to jail for it" then I think that is evil.


If women think in terms of "how can I trap a man with emotional manipulation even if he is going to be truly miserable with me" that is evil as well.

The fact that men want sex and women want emotional security and long term commitment doesn't automatically mean that they will push, manipulate, or otherwise hurt each other with these desires. It just means that they sometimes can and do if they are not self aware of how they are behaving or if they simply don't care how their actions affect another person and think only of themselves (isn't that narcism?)

Even when women are attacked by strangers it is often reported that they have a freeze response and experience a feeling that they can't move. My point is that predators know how to read these ques (that a woman may cower in fear rather than fighting back physically) better than the general population. Changing that within yourself while give you a higher protective factor than just about anything else. Ninja skill training may help to change that because you will feel greater confidence in having assertive reponse.

But there is social stigma against women responding to a man's unwanted sexual advances. If she feels uncomfortable, she should feel comfortable to move away without questioning whether her reason for moving away is justified. If a guy is offended that you, say didn't want to sit at a table next to him in a coffee shop because you were feeling uncomfortable, it should be a non issue. For many women it's over thought "if I move will he think I'm accusing him of being a predator? That would be mean and misogynistic of me. If I move will he think I'm assuming he is interested? That would be self absorbed and assuming of me"

Rather than worrying about whether you are right or wrong to be uncomfortable, just move. If the guy is secure in himself, he won't take it personally whether he was interested or not.

If understanding that dynamic offers only protection against legal sexual exploitation, it's worth knowing.

"And this dismissal can also yield important information: anyone who doesn't respect the message is probably registered in a database, because it always means: "well, my self is more important than your self."

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Regarding your exchanges wi... (Below threshold)

November 6, 2010 3:53 PM | Posted, in reply to someone's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Regarding your exchanges with Rox (accusing her of misandry)...The difference is this, someone. Rox has been hurt and abused by men her whole life. In spite of this abuse, enough to turn anyone hateful, she tries to be open minded and kind to men.


You, on the other hand, have NEVER been hurt or abused by women. You are just another run of the mill runty, scrawny, pale 20-30 something heterosexual white male who is socially unsuccessful THROUGH HIS OWN FAULTS. You are selfish, self centered, narcissistic, and you are a failure at it. You are exactly the kind of guy a selfish narcissistic alpha male is, except you are an abysmal social failure. This produces the hateful sniveling internet misogynist. You are a pathetic useless blight on the world, and if you spent a little time thinking about ways to be productive and the needs of others, you might make some progress with your nebulous frustrations (social failure, sexual failure, leading you to hate women).

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Don't hate the player. Hate... (Below threshold)

November 6, 2010 7:19 PM | Posted by GT: | Reply

Don't hate the player. Hate the game.

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If the player in question i... (Below threshold)

November 6, 2010 7:53 PM | Posted by rox: | Reply

If the player in question is intentionally hurting people, then it's the player who is cruel. Not the game. Whether they are male or female.

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"In spite of this abuse, en... (Below threshold)

November 7, 2010 1:01 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by someone: | Reply

"In spite of this abuse, enough to turn anyone hateful, she tries to be open minded and kind to men."

Yes, calling all men evil is very open-minded and kind.

Your hysterical rant is not based on anything, you are just making up things at random. You are obviously deranged and need professional help.

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Someone, I never said that ... (Below threshold)

November 7, 2010 9:18 AM | Posted by rox: | Reply

Someone, I never said that all men are evil and if you choose to interperet my words such that you can justify your hatred of me, that's your choice but it really has nothing to do with me and everything to do with the fact that in the end, hating me would be your preferred outcome.

I would guess you've been wanting to argue with me over other things I've said, but you haven't been able to come up with a socially acceptable way to say your argument. Like for example, do you believe that all women could get away from rape if they really tried? Do you believe that deep down women love getting raped and we should encourage this behavior?

The reason I sounded so pissed in the post in which I said some men are evil is because I interpereted someone as justifying rape and that pisses me off. Some men rape people, some men like to justify rape. Why wouldn't that piss a person off?

Unless what you're REALLY upset about is that you think rape should be ok, and therefore there's no reason to be upset that some men rape.

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TLP: **topic vaguely relate... (Below threshold)

November 7, 2010 3:48 PM | Posted, in reply to someone's comment, by Someone's M.O.: | Reply

TLP: **topic vaguely related to women***

Someone: "Women are evil and manipulate men sexually".

Anonymi: "That is misogynistic. Why are you so hateful? You must be a miserable person."

Someone: "You're hysterical. You're not making sense. Where is your evidence for these statements?"

Someone: "I don't need women. I have no interest what so ever in dealing with women. They are evil feminists trying to control men".

Anonymi: "??!!!"

Rinse reuse recycle.

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Why are you hatin'? Don't b... (Below threshold)

November 7, 2010 9:42 PM | Posted, in reply to rox's comment, by GT: | Reply

Why are you hatin'? Don't be a player hater.

Stop the hate and learn to appreciate.

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If to you being a "player" ... (Below threshold)

November 7, 2010 10:48 PM | Posted by rox: | Reply

If to you being a "player" includes inviting women to your house and them slamming them against a wall and doing your business, fucking a woman up the ass while she screams in pain and tries to fight you off, luring 16 year old girls to your house when you're an adult man and having sex with them while they cry; then I think you missed to road to "stoping hate" a long time ago.

If to you being a player means having sex with women even though you know they will be deeply hurt by it so long as they submitt- then I find it interesting that you're often reading a blog about narcissism (only considering your own self, ego, and self image and not seeing the existence of others as mattering in your decision processes). You haven't learned much, have you?

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"Someone, I never said that... (Below threshold)

November 8, 2010 1:42 AM | Posted, in reply to rox's comment, by someone: | Reply

"Someone, I never said that all men are evil."

That is precisely what you said. Anyone can go back and read your posts, so don't try to backpedal in such a pathetic way.

"Like for example, do you believe that all women could get away from rape if they really tried? Do you believe that deep down women love getting raped and we should encourage this behavior?"

Again, I have not discussed this subject at all, so it has nothing to do with me.

"Unless what you're REALLY upset about is that you think rape should be ok, and therefore there's no reason to be upset that some men rape."

You are insane.

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This is a straw man. Try ag... (Below threshold)

November 8, 2010 1:43 AM | Posted, in reply to Someone's M.O.'s comment, by someone: | Reply

This is a straw man. Try again.

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It's simply a description o... (Below threshold)

November 8, 2010 8:54 AM | Posted, in reply to someone's comment, by AnAnon: | Reply

It's simply a description of your modus operandi "someone" - apparently it's been observed by a number of people who read the comments that this is your pattern of behavior. Clearly you've concocted another narrative in your head about who you are and what you're doing (an imaginary/false self) that's entirely contradicted by your actions. Alone writes about this quite a bit, it's actually one of the key themes he returns to vis a vis narcissism. (The fact that you continuously claim to be a victim while being actively abusive to others, particularly those who don't affirm your subjective narrative about reality, also indicates your self image is not supported by your actions - that there is a false self that's being so desperately protected and projected.) It's pretty clear you'd like to impose your subjective narrative about yourself and the world onto reality (and claim Alone and this blog supports your subjective narrative) - and that doing this is your main agenda here.

Nothing wrong with having a subjective perspective, of course. We all do, it's the nature of being human. It's the inability to recognize one's own perspective as subjective and to acknowledge the subjective perspectives of others that is an indicator of a lack of empathy and a narcissistic disruption. It's childish to blame women for all your unhappiness and problems (even if your mother was mentally ill or abusive, she was one person not all women). Just as women who blame men for all their personal issues are being childish. Being an adult involves taking responsibility for one's own feelings, thoughts and actions - not blaming women (or men) for deflating some entirely false image of yourself that you want everyone to believe. I'd suggest you read TLP with a more open mind - rather than assuming it confirms your biases - because there's a lot that Alone writes about that could give you an entirely new perspective on the world, yourself and others. Right now you seem very trapped in your own hate and need to affirm a false identity where you can consider yourself superior to others. It's obvious you're suffering (mainly at your own hand now that you're an adult, you're victimizing yourself via your own beliefs) and you want the last psychiatrist to help/support/affirm you, I sincerely hope you do find some help somewhere so you can let go of all your fear and hate. That's no way to live and there are other possibilities that you can't see from your current subjective perspective...let go of the need to try to make others conform to your false narrative and you'll find that the world is far different than you believe it is.

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Still can't back up or expl... (Below threshold)

November 8, 2010 2:23 PM | Posted, in reply to AnAnon's comment, by someone: | Reply

Still can't back up or explain anything, I see. Did you really think this wall of gibberish text would somehow disguise that fact? You're an imbecile.

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Please find exactly where I... (Below threshold)

November 8, 2010 2:58 PM | Posted by rox: | Reply

Please find exactly where I said "ALL men are evil."

People have five fingers. Is that true? Yes. Except that it's not because some people are born with less or more, and some people have fingers amputated.

Men can be evil. Women can be evil. I stant by both of those statements, as well as the statement "Some men are evil".

Anything else you say involves making up meanings for words in the english language that aren't correct. The word some means some. Whether it's written *some* or not. The reason I added stars is that I wanted to put emphasis specifically on the fact that I recognize not all men behave in the manner that I have seen them behave.


Either what you're pissed off about is that you think raping people, or hurting people is not evil, or you're just making up a meaning for my words that wasn't there.

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From what I can see, someon... (Below threshold)

November 9, 2010 1:03 AM | Posted, in reply to rox's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

From what I can see, someone cannot forgive you for having animosity/weariness/fear toward men. This is because someone is an extremely immature, self centered, empathy deficient sort of person. He cannot put himself in another person's position. He cannot imagine how life must have been for you, given your experiences with men, he does not care about anyone but himself. All he knows, in his tiny brain, behind his pubescent acne-ridden skull, you have indicated weariness of men, and so that makes you an evil woman. Because he is a failed narcissist, who cares about nothing and no one else but his animalistic desires and needs, a failure at society, a failure with women, and he is bitter and hateful.

Anyone with even a rudimentary nub of empathy can forgive someone for having animosity towards people or a person who has hurt them badly. For example, my father... my father was an alcoholic, he was rather abusive to my mother, and he is misogynistic. I forgive my father for these things, because this behavior comes from his history growing up in a catholic orphanage where he was routinely abused by the female nuns. His own mother was schizophrenic and threatened his life many times before he was 7 years old. He was afraid of his mother (her paranoia and delusions lead her to be suspicious of her children and threaten their lives because of her delusional thoughts). The nuns in the orphanage sexually and physically abused the children. When my father gets very drunk he tells me, if he is alone with a nun he feels fear.

See people with even a basic, primitive empathy don't hate those who are hurt. I can understand why you feel the way you do toward men, even though I personally have never been abused by any man and I personally feel no fear of men... but it isn't hard to imagine how I would feel if I had that history, I probably would fear and have resentment for men too. And I understand how my father feels about women, given that every woman in his life has hurt him when he was a child. It doesn't excuse it or make it right... but it's all just an expression of pain and fear from trauma.

Someone, I can tell by his writing, he has never been hurt or abused by women. It's beyond clear his feelings come from childishness, immaturity, narcissistic thinking. He is an animal, a void of needs like an elephant seal, he just wants to take what he wants and he is frustrated by society which mandates women have rights and it is not permissible to take from them what you want. He cannot tolerate a world where these walking pieces of meat have any capacity to control anything, to resist and refuse him, and so he hates the talking pieces of meat (women). He is preoccupied with sex.
Nothing in his writing is about hurting, it's about desiring and not caring about others but his own base animal desires. He wants to take women, he wants to control women, he thinks he should use them as he wants, and all of his anger and resentment comes from the fact that in this society, HE CAN NOT do that, and yet his desire remains, desire he knows he is powerless over and makes him weak (or so he feels). This desire and anger/frustration over his social failure is why he is obsessed with celibacy, women controlling men, etc. He is a twisted miserable person full of desire and anger and hate...it's all really dysfunctional and speaks of an alienation from others so extreme it wouldn't surprise me if this guy were a psychopath.

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"Please find exactly where ... (Below threshold)

November 9, 2010 7:42 AM | Posted, in reply to rox's comment, by someone: | Reply

"Please find exactly where I said "ALL men are evil." "

Here: Most women, before they've realized how pushy and horrible fucking evil men are
And here: You are such a not cool guy and you're reminding why men are evil.

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Blah blah fucking blah. You... (Below threshold)

November 9, 2010 7:44 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by someone: | Reply

Blah blah fucking blah. You can't back up any of that gibberish.

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I think you are really one ... (Below threshold)

November 9, 2010 7:45 AM | Posted by someone: | Reply

I think you are really one of the most mentally disturbed people I've encountered on the Internet, and that's saying a lot.

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You know what they say, tak... (Below threshold)

November 9, 2010 9:23 AM | Posted by Sleet: | Reply

You know what they say, takes one to know one.

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Sleet, you obviously haven'... (Below threshold)

November 9, 2010 10:40 AM | Posted by someone: | Reply

Sleet, you obviously haven't read anything that's been said here, so go take your one-liners somewhere else.

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Yes, in my experiences, the... (Below threshold)

November 9, 2010 10:54 AM | Posted by rox: | Reply

Yes, in my experiences, the larger portion of men I have interacted with are capable of evil things. Which makes that statement applicable to my life. I interjected *some* because I know that the men I have interacted with are not representative of the entire population of men.

Do you think that exploiting women for sex even when it hurts them is evil or not?

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Oh, I read. And since you t... (Below threshold)

November 9, 2010 12:30 PM | Posted, in reply to someone's comment, by Sleet: | Reply

Oh, I read. And since you tend to call any post bigger than a one-liner "gibberish", implying you seem to have trouble comprehending them, I thought anything more would most likely be a waste of space (and time).

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They are gibberish because ... (Below threshold)

November 10, 2010 3:05 AM | Posted, in reply to Sleet's comment, by someone: | Reply

They are gibberish because they are gibberish. Their length is irrelevant.

They're just some crazy person ranting and making impossible, absurd, illogical and unsubstantiated claims for apparently no reason at all. Which you would have realized by now if you weren't such a fucking retard.

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My my, you seem to be quite... (Below threshold)

November 10, 2010 5:01 AM | Posted, in reply to someone's comment, by Sleet: | Reply

My my, you seem to be quite fond of making unsubstantiated claims yourself. You see, you have absolutely no valid information on what I thought of those longer posts (other than me noting you implied you had difficulty understanding them) and what, if anything, that says of my intellectual or mental capacity. Your own craziness is certainly shining through, though.

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You have no idea what's goi... (Below threshold)

November 10, 2010 6:08 AM | Posted by someone: | Reply

You have no idea what's going on, either because you're too stupid or because you haven't paid any attention. Either way, fuck off.

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Oh, I guess the shrieking f... (Below threshold)

November 11, 2010 12:25 PM | Posted by someone: | Reply

Oh, I guess the shrieking fembots finally ran out of steam and can now do nothing except vote my comments down. So predictable.

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"Do you think that exploiti... (Below threshold)

November 14, 2010 10:13 PM | Posted by rox: | Reply

"Do you think that exploiting women for sex even when it hurts them is evil or not?"

I'm just curious what your position on this is. Truly, do you think there are not men who do evil things? Why does it piss you off that someone might have an experience in which the larger portion of men they have interacted with have been deeply hurtful and cruel? If you have had such experiences with women, then I believe you. If you want to say, "In my experience, women are evil" I don't see anything wrong with that. Why does it offend you so much that someone has had bad experiences with men?

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Shouldn't you be in a psych... (Below threshold)

November 15, 2010 3:17 PM | Posted by someone: | Reply

Shouldn't you be in a psychiatric institution right now?

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Whoh.. I was in the process... (Below threshold)

November 15, 2010 4:43 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Whoh.. I was in the process of writing something agreeing with someone.. actualy this is what I was writing:

-----

"I'm jumping on the end of what seems to be a horrible flame war, and I'm not going to lie: I didn't read past the last few posts. So.. take this with a grain of salt.

I have to say though, if my interpretation of what's being articulated is at all correct, that I kind of agree with someone. Basically rox you are saying you've had bad experiences with some guys and don't trust men?

Imagine talking to somebody who has had bad experiences with members of a racial group, and now hates and fears the entire group. Maybe understandable, but it's not fair to the majority of decent people, or the minority of truly good people, in any group. "

-----

But then I went back and did read through the flame war. I see rox you didn't actually express what someone is accusing you of at all. I'm genuinely sorry for what you've gone through.

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Hi!~ Writing to you ... (Below threshold)

November 16, 2010 12:51 AM | Posted by someone's testicles: | Reply

Hi!~
Writing to you from up inside someone's abdominal cavity, way past the inguinal canal. Using mobile internet to type this. I never descended so that is why I am in this unfortunate predicament, held hostage inside of the body of a pubescent potential date rapist or serial killer.

Send halp, the same ppl who saved the miners... plz :(

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"I see rox you didn't actua... (Below threshold)

November 16, 2010 4:27 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by someone: | Reply

"I see rox you didn't actually express what someone is accusing you of at all."

Of course she did, and I have proven it several times. Not that it requires any proof since all her posts are right there in plain sight, readable to anyone. It's also obvious that she is mentally disturbed, and not trivially so.

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More hysterical feminist no... (Below threshold)

November 16, 2010 4:35 AM | Posted, in reply to someone's testicles's comment, by someone: | Reply

More hysterical feminist nonsense that cannot be backed up in any way whatsoever. Yawn.

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Ok two comments. ... (Below threshold)

November 16, 2010 10:33 AM | Posted, in reply to someone's comment, by Cashman: | Reply

Ok two comments.

One - The testicle thing isn't feminist nonsense. It's just garden variety nonsense, used for mockery purposes. There's nothing feminist about pretending to be your undescended testicle.

Two - I started off agreeing with you. I went looking through rox's posts for ammo to use against her, and discovered that while she DID say the words you are correctly quoting from her posts, you are taking things way out of context. She's not expressing the point of view that you accuse her of expressing. She seems to have gone through some bad things in her life, but this hasn't warped her view excessively.

Clearly you don't seem to like feminism, ok, fine. You are jumping at shadows though. At this point the discussion is way removed from feminism. Your own statements are vastly more crazed and vastly less warranted by what has been said than rox's are.

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"One - The testicle thing i... (Below threshold)

November 16, 2010 5:41 PM | Posted, in reply to Cashman's comment, by someone: | Reply

"One - The testicle thing isn't feminist nonsense."

Read more carefully. I was accused of being a date rapist or serial killer. Making feverish accusations based on nothing is typical feminism, and we've already seen a lot of such behavior in this thread.

"she DID say the words you are correctly quoting from her posts, you are taking things way out of context."

And what is it that I'm taking out of context?

"Your own statements are vastly more crazed and vastly less warranted by what has been said than rox's are."

What statements?

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I resemble that remark, sor... (Below threshold)

November 17, 2010 2:12 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by BikerDad: | Reply

I resemble that remark, sort of. I go to the book store alone 95% of the time. Why? Three reasons: I am generally alone. That's where the books are that I want to buy. That's where some magazines are that may have a single article worth reading. (I'll read a magazine at the book store, not a book.)

No stalking, no trying to find women, nada. Nor, btw, do I go to the bookstore for coffee. I go to get books. Nothing messed up about that... I would hope.

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Fuck you, too.... (Below threshold)

November 22, 2010 10:40 PM | Posted, in reply to rox's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Fuck you, too.

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So roz, given that you've b... (Below threshold)

November 22, 2010 11:09 PM | Posted by Plaid Begonia: | Reply

So roz, given that you've been used for sex over & over by so many men, I'll bet you're not only really hot-looking but you're a really super-great lay, huh?

I mean no disrespect: the most fun I've had in & out of bed was with people who've gotten good at being Sex Objects. Sometimes they're even honest with me, and every so often one will stick around long enough for us to get to know each other. And hey, if all else fails, if we can't even find enough common ground for a decent conversation, we can at least have a decent fuck or two.

Just in case, I left my email address.

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Sorry, I meant rox. ... (Below threshold)

November 22, 2010 11:24 PM | Posted, in reply to Plaid Begonia's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply


Sorry, I meant rox. Is there's a roZ here I'm not hitting on you. And damn, you can't get the email address by clicking on the username here; use pompatusoflove@rocketmail.com


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You've won the award for bi... (Below threshold)

November 23, 2010 1:33 AM | Posted, in reply to Plaid Begonia's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

You've won the award for biggest piece of shit in the entire world. You just beat out charlie sheen. Right now Charlie Sheen is looking your way with a twisted grimace of disgust and horror.

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"You've won the a... (Below threshold)

November 23, 2010 3:26 AM | Posted by Plaid Begonia: | Reply


"You've won the award for biggest piece of shit in the entire world."

If you say so, buddy. You'll note however that I did not lie, cheat or steal, that I was completely up-front, transparent and basically non-exploitative. There's a right way and a wrong way to do everything, and I'm satisfied with my way. Or would you rather I pretend, as doubtless several other men have, that I'm not like all those other men? That I'm special, and sensitive, and love rox for her sterling personal qualities that shine so brightly here in the blogosphere?

And do you imagine that I could do such a thing without having been used & damaged myself? Not that that's an excuse, I'm just narcissistic enough to not care what you think, only that I yam what I yam.

I'd travel cross-country for one good fuck, which would mean going Greyhound. Ever taken Greyhound across the country? It fucking sucks. But it beats lying to somebody when all I can really hope for is one last decent fuck before I pack it in and stew myself in cheap bourbon. I might be "a piece of shit" but at least I'm honest.

See? And fuck you if you don't like it.



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I REPEAT: you are the bigge... (Below threshold)

November 23, 2010 4:00 AM | Posted, in reply to Plaid Begonia's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

I REPEAT: you are the biggest piece of shit in the entire world.

And now, this talking walking piece of shit is attempting to defend itself. Comical. Yes, there there my little turd. You really are a decent human being. Because you were "up front" about being a piece of shit, so you're on the right side of the heaven/hell line now.

Let me paraphrase what just transpired.

Rox has been defending sexual abuse victims. Rox describes the cringe-worthy things that have happened to her by smelly sweaty grotesque men when she was a child and young person. Rox warns that men , a lot of them, are animals who are human only by virtue of phenotypical presentation and verbal ability, but for all practical purposes are pretty much elephant seals, grotesque animals.
I doubt this but have come to believe her, juding by the 50/50 split of thumbs up to pedophilia (see the blog entry about advertising) and various other things have lead me to believe her.

Anyone with even minimal empathy should have read what rox wrote and felt nothing but compassion and sadness for the things she's been through.

Then along comes A WALKING, TALKING PIECE OF SHIT. The walking talking piece of shit thinks "hey, I have a dick!" and writes:

So roz, given that you've been used for sex over & over by so many men, I'll bet you're not only really hot-looking but you're a really super-great lay, huh?

I mean no disrespect: the most fun I've had in & out of bed was with people who've gotten good at being Sex Objects. Sometimes they're even honest with me, and every so often one will stick around long enough for us to get to know each other. And hey, if all else fails, if we can't even find enough common ground for a decent conversation, we can at least have a decent fuck or two.

Just in case, I left my email address.

I mean. I mean. You really are the biggest piece of shit in the world.

Okay, even if you are trolling (please please please be trolling) you are still a gigantic piece of shit because it is not funny to make rape and child sexual abuse the brunt of humor. But something awful inside tells me that you were dead serious.

Okay, you know I am a RN and I once heard of a patient story where a resident with vascular dementia disclosed to NA staff how her step father brutally sodomized and raped her when she was a young teenager while her mother was at church. This went on for years. She went into detail, as dementia can disinhibit a person like this.

Now you might not be as big of a piece of shit as that guy... but you are in the same spectrum.

I wonder how men like you live with yourselves? I would seriously just hari kari myself.

Why is narcissism and sociopathy and abject mind blowing self centeredness so common in men? It's truly depressing so many human beings are just so worthless and evil. And while I don't hate men, it's true that they are mostly men.

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"I REPEAT: you are the b... (Below threshold)

November 23, 2010 6:40 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"I REPEAT: you are the biggest piece of shit in the entire world."

Bigger than Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, Idi Amin and Charlie Sheen? WOW. I have arrived! Pretty soon Marines will be pulling down statues of me all over the world. And unlike those ineffectual nebbishes I didn't even have to rob, rape or murder anybody to accomplish this feat!

Golly. How do you cope with being so silly?

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my two cents:there... (Below threshold)

November 23, 2010 9:59 AM | Posted by Steve: | Reply

my two cents:

there are a lot of weird, fucked up in the head males. Biological males. Let's not use the term "men" or "Men" who must only be used with positive connotations to describe them, please.

But I noticed that many women tend to surround themselves with these pathetic, dysfunctional pieces of shit. I mean, everybody can tell they are pathetic, dysfunctional pieces of shit, even said women.

The dysfunctions can be multiple, from clearly unstable personalities, to creepy passive clingy "nice guys", to abusive assholes. (I have more specific examples from my experiences if someone is interested)

Yet women do not tell these pieces of shit to fuck off, they even tend to surround themselves with these elements. Of course they bitch behind their back when they are not present, voicing how weird or abusive they are, then at the next occasion hang with them again.

An example are rox tales. From what I understand, she (or her friends) even got into the same room with these dudes, one on one. I am pretty sure that these dudes were literally glowing with the power of their asshole aura, yet she (or her friends) ignored their feeling and their rational thoughts, and ended up being abused or whatever.

Girls, say no to pieces of shit or creepy or abusive individuals. Ostracize them as you should. If you don't, then expect trouble. And don't you dare criticize "Men" for your problems with the pathetic biological males you surround yourself with. "Men" is a word with only positive connotations, understand this.

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WOwza, look what I missed! ... (Below threshold)

November 23, 2010 11:45 AM | Posted by rox: | Reply

WOwza, look what I missed! This is actually interesting to me. So on the one hand plaid bagonias or whatever you're name was, you actually ARE the type of guy that is often appealing to girls who have been in abusive situations. Unfortunately, you're also very likely to treat women badly, however, the fact there is no lying IS a plus. I went through a lot of abuse in the teen years, and after that I was really happy to date people that were like, "Hello I am an asshole, you should never trust me and I don't love you, and I will be a jerk"

It does in fact feel a lot safer than guys who say, "You can trust me, I'm never going to hurt you"

Which is always going to result in horrible things. I dealt with the betrayal a long time ago and won't go there again. Since I don't trust guys who say they are nice at all EVER, Steve's point comes in to play.

It is much easier to hang out with people who are upfront horny and unloving, than to believe people who say they are loving and kind and then they hurt you and there is shock and there is devastation. It is safer to assume that guys who tell you they won't hurt you, are thinking about hurting you which is why they bothered to mention they won't hurt you, (otherwise why mention it if you haven't even thought of it?) Like when my ex said, "If you ever break up with me I won't stalk you or go all psycho and attack you or anything" (Uh... why would you need to tell me that? Yes he did wind up stalking me for three years)

If a guy wants to hang out with you he wants to have sex with you, and if he says otherwise he's either lying to you or to himself. In my experience it's the guys who are lying to themselves that are the most scary, because they become shocked at their own behavior as well and their guilt is terrible to watch. And I do actually feel compassionate for guys that secretly struggle with wanting to hurt people and not being able to control their behavior. I think a certain amount of predatory feelings are normal, but then again, since I don't trust guys who say they don't have predatory feelings... I wouldn't know any of the guys who don't have those instincts (or rather I wouldn't trust them at all!) That being said, I DO think there are guys out there who really don't have much going on so far as predatory feelings. I just don't trust my ability to figure out which is which.

But I will say this Steve, predatory men have certainly been around for a long portion of our evolutionary history, and they know how to find vulnerable women and what to do with them (women can develop equally evil skills, they are just a different set of skills). When women are young it's really hard to understand what's going on with that. Anything I can do or say to help young women figure out that dynamic and avoid situations they don't want, I want to do. The scariest guys really DO come accross as sweet and trustworthy and kind. It's not as easy to figure out as you are thinking, Steve.

And if a girl DOES want to be a part of predator/prey interaction, there's nothing wrong with that. Just be honest with yourself about it and find someone that will respectfully role play that scene you're looking for. Just don't let it happen over and over if it isn't what you really want, and trust me, for many women repeating it, it's causing serious devestation and it's not a good thing. There is a line between attracting bad situations because you want them, and attracing them because you are an easy target. One thing that's really sad is that guys who think they are nice guys often want you to "talk about it" and get you where you're re-experiencing and the room is spinning and everything looks like a tunnel and then they know they have won and they can do the same exact thing and you will be unable to stop it. I will not ever let that happen again, so for the benefit of myself and possibly for the benefit of these guys who are in denial of their own predatory instincts that can come up when they hear about your abuse... I avoid them like the plague.

(sorry plaid bagonia's, I don't think I will be e-mailing you, I have quite a few jerky playmates I can call on in a pinch... :) )

And thank you anonymous for defending me so passionately. It's very sweet.

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>QUOTED FOR... (Below threshold)

November 24, 2010 1:06 AM | Posted, in reply to rox's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply


>

QUOTED FOR TRUTH.

ONLY Exception: the man is gay.

Straight men have no interest in friendships with women. IF a man wants to be "friends" with you and is interested in you, he wants to fuck you. END OF STORY.

It's amazing how naive some girls are that they really think guys want to be their friend.

I don't think any amount of preditory feelings are normal. Sexual feelings are normal (she is hot, I want to fuck her) but preditory feelings (she is hot, I want ot trap her in a room and force her to have sex with me) is sorta not normal I don't think. Or at least I fucking hope it's not, it kinda creeps me out to think many guys are thinking this way but "fighting" the urge to rape women. I imagine a man can be so preoccupied with sex, and have so little empathy, that forced sex happens... but I don't think the man is ever thinking "rape rape rape" like that, it's more like "sex sex sex" and if he has to force then so be it. I don't think he is ever consciously aware that he is a rapist and a scumbag, unless of course he is a full blown psychopath serial rapist or something.

>

Also agreed. I think the sort of guy who is most likely to use and abuse someone is the sort of guy who is very good at understanding the psychological vulnerabilities of others. Assholes are bad at this, as they are so up front and direct, they aren't the best at reading people or passive manipulation. User abuser types are extremely good at knowing what other people want/need and how to use that in their favor. They will seem very nice and make you emotionally vulnerable before them.

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If a guy wants to... (Below threshold)

November 24, 2010 1:08 AM | Posted, in reply to rox's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply


If a guy wants to hang out with you he wants to have sex with you, and if he says otherwise he's either lying to you or to himself.

QUOTED FOR TRUTH.

ONLY Exception: the man is gay.

Straight men have no interest in friendships with women. IF a man wants to be "friends" with you and is interested in you, he wants to fuck you. END OF STORY.

It's amazing how naive some girls are that they really think guys want to be their friend.

I don't think any amount of preditory feelings are normal. Sexual feelings are normal (she is hot, I want to fuck her) but preditory feelings (she is hot, I want ot trap her in a room and force her to have sex with me) is sorta not normal I don't think. Or at least I fucking hope it's not, it kinda creeps me out to think many guys are thinking this way but "fighting" the urge to rape women. I imagine a man can be so preoccupied with sex, and have so little empathy, that forced sex happens... but I don't think the man is ever thinking "rape rape rape" like that, it's more like "sex sex sex" and if he has to force then so be it. I don't think he is ever consciously aware that he is a rapist and a scumbag, unless of course he is a full blown psychopath serial rapist or something.

The scariest guys really DO come accross as sweet and trustworthy and kind. It's not as easy to figure out as you are thinking, Steve.

Also agreed. I think the sort of guy who is most likely to use and abuse someone is the sort of guy who is very good at understanding the psychological vulnerabilities of others. Assholes are bad at this, as they are so up front and direct, they aren't the best at reading people or passive manipulation. User abuser types are extremely good at knowing what other people want/need and how to use that in their favor. They will seem very nice and make you emotionally vulnerable before them.

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"Straight men have no inter... (Below threshold)

November 24, 2010 7:24 PM | Posted by someone: | Reply

"Straight men have no interest in friendships with women. IF a man wants to be "friends" with you and is interested in you, he wants to fuck you. END OF STORY."

Also: 9/11 was committed by garden gnomes.

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Pretty much anything anyone... (Below threshold)

November 24, 2010 8:06 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by odd-eyed cat: | Reply

Pretty much anything anyone tries to say about the relations between men and women, or about How Men Are and How Women Are, is just so fucking cliched and unimaginative, and the thought of trying to refute all of the erroneous unexamined assumptions in these kinds of analyses just makes me tired. If everyone could just strip away all of the bullshit and see people for what they really are - genderless, immaterial aggregates of spiritual energy, then the world would be a much better place.

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I like thinking and talking... (Below threshold)

November 24, 2010 9:01 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I like thinking and talking about "the relations between men and women" because at my age it's so much easier than doing anything about it. (*cymbal crash*)

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How about a version HOW TO ... (Below threshold)

November 26, 2010 12:09 PM | Posted by Craig: | Reply

How about a version HOW TO NOT MEET MEN?

If a stranger (who incidentally has a wedding band) at work smiles at you in the hallway, it's not necessarily because he wants to have a baby with you. Perhaps he's just trying to be pleasant. Do not under any circumstances follow him through the parking lot, ten feet behind him, matching him step for step, clearing your throat loudly to get his attention. He might just go to Personnel and have you fired for stalking.

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Women generally do not do t... (Below threshold)

November 26, 2010 5:34 PM | Posted, in reply to Craig's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Women generally do not do this.

If a woman does this, she is an exception to the general behavior of women.

Normal women are inclined to be flirtatious with men they are attracted to, but FOLLOWING IN PARKING LOT MAKING NOISE is way out of the spectrum of normal behavior.

On the other hand, a large percentage of men are sexual perverts deep down, at the very least they have a penchant for harassing women in some way.

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On the other hand, a lar... (Below threshold)

November 26, 2010 8:02 PM | Posted by Craig: | Reply

On the other hand, a large percentage of men are sexual perverts deep down, at the very least they have a penchant for harassing women in some way.

You need a psychiatrist.

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Oh do i, Craig? You are cle... (Below threshold)

November 27, 2010 5:27 AM | Posted, in reply to Craig's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Oh do i, Craig? You are clearly not a woman who is at least a 3/10, because if you were, you would be in 100% agreement with what I said.

I meet those above criteria, and let me describe just a *typical* day (i.e. today).

It is 10pm. I am at a grocery store with my sister. There is a guy on line at the checkout behind us, making all sorts of odd gestures and noises, clearly directed toward us, pretending as if he is not watching us.

It is 11pm. I am at a movie theater with my sister. The underemployed obese ticket vendor proceeds to slime ball around and take an excessive amount of time to direct us to our movie and give us back our stubs.

It is 2am. I am alone at an all night laundry mat, listing to headphones, wearing a heavy winter coat, trying to ignore eveyrone else while I fold my laundry. A patron proceedes to STAND WAY CLOSE TO ME the entire time I am folding my laundry literally just staring at me like a fucking rapist/killer/autistic weirdo. For about 2 minutes he leaves to go to the bathroom, and I hope he is gone, but he quickly returns to resume his staring. I ignore him because I need to finish my laundry and I know that yelling at him will have minimal impact (he will just go across the room to be an obnoxious turd and stare I am sure). I do not make eye contact once, but I check in the ceiling mirrors intended to prevent theft/attacks to see if this freakshow is still staring, sure enough he is.

On my way out of the laundry I look to him and say "do you have a fucking problem?" and he just shakes his head in a "no" fashion while maintaining that creepy fixed gaze.

It is 2:30 am. I am driving home singing in my car (admit, this is my fault, drawing attention to myself being silly). I park my car to run into the bank and a car with two men stop me to tell me I am cute and encourage me rocking out. (this wasn't creepy, I thought it was kind of funny... but all the same it highlights that men constantly try to approach women).


Now, let me ask you guys... how OFTEN do you notice women doing this kind of shit to you? Do women stare at you in a fixed autistic way while you do laundry? Do women flag down your car to flirt and make you aware you are being watched?

I doubt it.

But every girl who is not extremely old or extremely ugly knows men do this all the time.

In short, cut the bullshit. I am tired of men bullshitting about how they really *aren't* sex fiends who won't dry hump a pile of rags with a wig, much like a dog might. You're not fooling anyone but yourselves.

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I have a feeling you are go... (Below threshold)

November 27, 2010 5:36 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I have a feeling you are going to try to pretend that kind of crap happens to you (a man), but we all know that's a bunch of nonsense. Women talk to other women and know how other women behave toward men. Men know how they behave. Sell this bullcrap to an alien who has no idea about human behavior, the human beings aren't going to buy it.

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Take the middle way rox... (Below threshold)

November 27, 2010 11:35 AM | Posted, in reply to rox's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Take the middle way rox

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Two roads diverged in a yel... (Below threshold)

November 27, 2010 5:50 PM | Posted by rox: | Reply

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And I plowed through the undergrowth in the middle
I'm all scratched up and shit but
It must have made some sort of difference

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And you know everything tha... (Below threshold)

December 8, 2010 1:36 PM | Posted by som1: | Reply

And you know everything that was going through their minds how? Everything you wrote only happened in your head. Project much? How do you know the girl wasn't hoping he'd actually make a move?

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I really liked reading your... (Below threshold)

December 24, 2010 2:10 AM | Posted, in reply to Jim's comment, by New Era Caps: | Reply

I really liked reading your post!. Quallity content. With such a valuable blog i believe you deserve to be ranking even higher in the search engines smilies/smiley.gif. Check out the link in my name. That links to a tool that really helped me rank high in google. This way even more people can enjoy your posts and nothing beats a big audiance smilies/wink.gif http://www.gotoorder.com

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> the woman sits nearby, ba... (Below threshold)

December 27, 2010 10:48 AM | Posted, in reply to HedgeMage's comment, by Richard Kulisz: | Reply

> the woman sits nearby, bats her eyelashes, makes and breaks eye contact, licks her lips pointedly in his direction, etc

the male equivalent to that pattern is for the man to sit nearby, put an ankle on his other knee, puff up (straighten his back and shoulders), lean back, make and break eye contact, and smile pointedly in her direction.

The pattern exists for both males and females, but it takes tremendous self-confidence and practice to do it well.

The best way to gracefully back out of that pattern is probably to mock oneself by dramatically faking hurt then smiling in good humour.

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Moving back up the shiny he... (Below threshold)

January 11, 2011 7:27 AM | Posted by monster beats: | Reply

Moving back up the shiny headband, four tiny hex-head screws reveal the seam at which the headphones can be expanded along their internal metal bracing.

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He opened his first store i... (Below threshold)

February 19, 2011 2:33 AM | Posted by rolex watch: | Reply

He opened his first store in Paris in 1854, hawking finely made trunks, hat boxes, and other luxury luggage for the well-traveled set.

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I think the point is to bec... (Below threshold)

May 15, 2011 4:59 PM | Posted by DG: | Reply

I think the point is to become the man who walks up to the woman right away, and sees if she is interested and interesting. And if she rejects you, still sit down at the available table and do what you were going to do.

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The point is, the applicati... (Below threshold)

June 27, 2011 3:06 AM | Posted by gangwan888: | Reply

The point is, the application of religion as law is a step backwards. Not all muslims in America are big on sharia, just as not all jews are big on talmudic law, and not all christians are big on OT laws from Leviticus & Deuteronomy. The ones that are tend to be pretty nasty, backwards folks, relying on laws laid down when people were traversing deserts and the like. A devout evangelical christian, or devout orthodox jew, would seem to be every bit as much of a risk to follow their religious law over American law, as a devout muslim would be to follow islamic law over American law.

If you think there's a huge difference, pick up your bible and dive into the OT. You can find all sorts of minor, wacky justifications for killing people. I could name a few other things tacitly allowed, but I don't want to upset anyone or start a fight. Just keep in mind that the religious tomes of all 3 Abrahamic religons are either directly, or indirectly... linked together, and say many of the same things. The difference is that as society has evolved, we've learned it's not polite to get dad drunk and corpse-f^ck him to get pregnant, just because there isn't any other male company around.

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I suggest folks watch NatGe... (Below threshold)

June 27, 2011 3:07 AM | Posted, in reply to Craig's comment, by gangwan888: | Reply

I suggest folks watch NatGeo's latest (as of this writing) episode of "Locked Up Abroad". It's about a an English man & a Filipino woman.

It was interesting to see christianity wielded by the police and the justice system, exactlylike islam is in some of the countries. Violence against women. Women unable to get divorcesdespite their husbands leaving them years earlier (and taking the children of course). Courts ready to hand out 14yr sentences for "adultery" to both the Filipino woman, and the English man. Honor Killings, just like we hear about in islamic countries.

You can also see some similar behavior among christians in other less developed countries, such as the Coptics, or other christian minorities in what are traditionally thought of as muslim countries.

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It was interesting to see c... (Below threshold)

June 27, 2011 11:32 PM | Posted by CL Shoes: | Reply

It was interesting to see christianity wielded by the police and the justice system, exactlylike islam is in some of the countries Christian Louboutin Champagne Chiffon Red Ambrosina Shoes. Violence against women. Women unable to get divorcesdespite.

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Alone - just found your blo... (Below threshold)

September 18, 2011 12:13 PM | Posted by I have been that guy: | Reply

Alone - just found your blog and have been enjoying it all morning. I am struck by the irony of your mantra "What does the author want to be true?" when reading the devolution of the above comments into rape and old testament laws.
Thanks for provoking!

BTW: I've been that guy in the bookstore/coffe shop. I did not go to hook up with anyone but rarely have my intentions for love been involved with any connection that has actually occurred. Connections happen at odd times, perhaps when least expected, and are not always sexual. She's attractive - not responding? ok, I'll go back to my latte...
If you think I'm a creep for that, then I made the right decision not to pursue further.

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I don't think Doc is trying... (Below threshold)

September 18, 2011 5:48 PM | Posted by felp: | Reply

I don't think Doc is trying to demean anyone, I think he's just trying to teach some basic realistic PU techniques.

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You think you're going to l... (Below threshold)

December 29, 2012 2:07 AM | Posted by Rudifer: | Reply

You think you're going to lay your ycombinator rap on her?

What's a "ycombinator rap"?

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<a href="http://www.secrets... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2013 8:13 AM | Posted by Carlos Gonzalez - Jesus Vera: | Reply

how to meet women

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And that is precisely why I... (Below threshold)

April 13, 2013 10:22 PM | Posted, in reply to Anon's comment, by Anon: | Reply

And that is precisely why I dont touch pot anymore. The sudden, terrifying state of self awareness,coupled with a decades worth of coffee shop and bookstore failures, is far too much for a friday night with a bag of doritos for company.

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with so many very Pathetic ... (Below threshold)

October 1, 2013 12:32 PM | Posted by Paul: | Reply

with so many very Pathetic Women out there these days, how in the world can good men like us meet a decent one now?

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Hahaha, and that's why I al... (Below threshold)

February 13, 2014 9:51 PM | Posted, in reply to Nadia's comment, by Jon: | Reply

Hahaha, and that's why I always wear headphones and listen to music when I'm on a bus. I don't want anyone to bother me.

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Well I did 'hit on' a woman... (Below threshold)

October 29, 2014 12:46 AM | Posted by Cody Vector: | Reply

Well I did 'hit on' a woman who I ended up having a lot in common with at the coffee shop. I just did it for the reasons he points out above, besides its better just to get it out of the way. if it goes south you can always turn your chair around.

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In short, cut the ... (Below threshold)

October 29, 2014 6:07 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by jonny: | Reply

In short, cut the bullshit. I am tired of men bullshitting about how they really *aren't* sex fiends who won't dry hump a pile of rags with a wig, much like a dog might. You're not fooling anyone but yourselves.

6000 years of early childhood abuse, betrayal, infanticide, trauma, war, depravity, clothes, shame, deceit, violence, bullying, horror, terror, religion, cannibalism and evil represent women's contribution to progress. 6000 years of broken faith.

The bullshit must be cut. They'll never stop disturbing the peace.

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Glad to see that along with... (Below threshold)

October 30, 2014 5:16 PM | Posted, in reply to jonny's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Glad to see that along with gravity and taxes, one other universal constant is that Jonny will continue to bitch at women for his own problems.

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Alone, I'm curious about wh... (Below threshold)

October 30, 2014 10:48 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Cody Vector: | Reply

Alone, I'm curious about what you think of the phenomenon of MGTOW, men's right activists, and the marriage strike by men.
Thanks in advance.

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Jonny will continu... (Below threshold)

October 31, 2014 4:13 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by jonny: | Reply

Jonny will continue to bitch at women for his own problems.

My problems? I have no problems as I have no need. You are the problem. I talk to you in lieu of culling your insect infestation.

I do not need violence and lies to negotiate with humans. I do not raise toddlers to live in fear of Authority or shame of biology. I do not force and coerce my Loved One/s to remain by my side against their will Until Death Do Us Part. I do not hate my betters or destroy competition I can't compete with. I don't need trauma and abusive whore shame to force everyone to dress, just so I can undress to impress. I don't contribute pain to sell pain relief.

I neither respect nor tolerate infantilised cosmetic frauds who want to peddle sex to victims of their abuse. Men are so abused, they're literally relieved a woman - any woman - is willing to put up with them. Men are blind to the reality of what women are doing to children to trap and hold men in lifelong wedlock.

I do not bring life to a world of suffering and horror to serve as repayment of debt I chose to incur by deciding to pursue depraved sex and cosmetic extortion. I do not abuse children and tell myself my imposition is for their sake. I do not enable the Machine to operate. My hands are clean. Blood drips from yours.

If we are to be judged in the afterlife, look for me in the thick of it, cheering all you wretched, antisocial cannibals straight to Hell.

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Yes, a person who has no pr... (Below threshold)

October 31, 2014 4:18 AM | Posted, in reply to jonny's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Yes, a person who has no problems would respond to criticism with threats of culling.

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