January 29, 2012

What Would You Do If Your Fiancee Rejected The Ring As Not Good Enough?

white-gold-engagement-rings.jpg
now let's see what kind of man you are

"Will you marry me?"

She covers her mouth with her hands and looks shocked. Tears. Oh my God. She can't believe you did this. (Yes she can.)   She says yes. (Not like there was any doubt.)   The other men in the restaurant join their wives in polite fake applause, albeit less enthusiastically.  Congratulations, they say.  They don't mean it.

Through dinner she turns her hand every which way.  It's so beautiful.  It's so clear.  How many karats is it, is it ____?  and the number she guesses will be off by one.  Of course.  

How much did this cost you? she eventually asks.  Wow.  How did you afford it?

Until finally....  It may happen at dinner, or at home, or... She says:

I don't want you to take this the wrong way

I really love it

But

I was kind of hoping for something a little

.... bigger.....


I.


Cue penis jokes: "She looks down and says, 'I was hoping for something bigger.'" Hack.  If she cancels the sex because it's not to her standards then she's not just a bitch but a slut, and not just a slut but a psychopath, because she's reduced your existence to a heated dildo, nothing else matters to her because nothing else can matter to her.  Sex is mutual masturbation. 


II.

Assume this is a hypothetical scenario; i.e. imagine it happening.

The most important question for you, the reader, the one that will tell you the truth about what is happening in the story, is this: what does the hypothetical woman in this story look like?

III.


I was listening to Cosmo Radio-- what? I'm allowed-- and Patrick, the host, is discussing this hypothetical story.  He had a strong reaction to it: "you dump that vapid bitch."  I'm paraphrasing.

The thing is, this isn't the first time you two have been around each other.  You have a prior history, you have had other insights into her character, you already know what kind of a woman she is.  Which makes you the type of man that is attracted to the kind of woman who would say that.  Uh oh.  And guess what type of man that kind of woman is attracted to.    You.

Patrick was right, you should dump her.  But not because she's shallow, but because you are.

IV.

His co-host, Lea, didn't say much, and I got the strong feeling that she felt, hypothetically, it was totally ok to turn down a ring she didn't think was big enough.

Some women will say the ring is an expression of love, it reveals how much her man thinks she's worth.  It shows to what extent he'd be willing to take care of her.  What they mean is that the ring is a kind of test of his love: does he love me so much that he's willing to "waste" money, abandon practicality, when it comes to me?

I get that there are more sensible women out there, the point here is not a critique of the woman's logic, the point here is the man's.     

The truth is that you knew when you bought it whether the ring was what she wanted. What you were banking on is that she'd accept it anyway.  It was a kind of test of her love.   

That's why this offer of the less than "perfect" ring that she rejects can be understood to be a defensive maneuver: you don't want to marry her.  "You know what, you're absolutely right."  Not so fast.  I mean you'd be much happier just dating her, living with her, status quo.  And you know, if she just waited, someday, someday, someday, you'll be rich; and then you'll buy her a really nice ring.

Yummy.  Nothing the kind of woman looking for a perfect ring now wants more than a wait-and-see guy.  You're with her (partly) for her looks, yet you expect she'll gamble those looks on a single horse race that starts sometime in 2025.  "Don't sweat it, baby, I got a system."  Can't wait.

But if your patent/stock/novel/horse comes through and you later do indeed get her that bigger ring, are you going to spend a greater proportion of your wealth on it, or just more money?  If not, then you haven't properly understood what that ring represents to her-- crazy or not-- which means that you don't understand her, which means, importantly, that you do not care to try.   The point here isn't that she's right, the point is you two are not connected.

Save your money.  You'll lose it in the divorce anyway.

V.

I don't know if Lea would reject such a ring or not.  Her hypothetical position is that a ring is a symbol and blah blah blah.  In real life, she might reject such a ring, or circumstances with her fiance might be that she is perfectly happy with that ring, or any ring, or waiting for a ring, or who knows what, because the difference between what you would do hypothetically and what you would do in real life is the other person.

Hypotheticals like this can only be answered because you're controlling for the most important and limitless variable, the other person. When you have a real fiancee, who knows what you'd do?  If you really knew her, the story wouldn't happen.  So the point of these hypotheticals isn't to determine a code of behavior but to broadcast to others something about yourself.  "I'm the kind of guy that wouldn't tolerate such a gold digging bitch."  Oh, you're a Capricorn.  But in your own hypothetical, hadn't you already tolerated her for a year?  40% of the time from behind?

In the example above, what did she look like?  You imagined her to be hot.....ter than you.  You did this because only a really hot chick, a kind of woman, would reject a ring because it wasn't big enough.  And in this way you have justified not being with this woman, "a bitch!"-- a woman who doesn't exist but serves a a proxy for a type of woman who also does not exist-- so that you don't have to face rejection.  In other words: blame it on the ring.

When the woman in the joke rejected you because of your penis, do you really believe she liked you except for the penis? 

These hypotheticals are dreams.  The lesson isn't what you would do; but how did you construct the fantasy to allow you to do it?  That tells you who you are.

VI.

"Are you saying I have to buy her an expensive ring?"  No guy wearing Axe who doesn't read the post before yelling. I'm saying that if you spring a ring on a woman which you already know is less than what she wanted, hoping that she'll be satisfied but not sure if she'll be satisfied, then the problem isn't the ring, the problem is you. 


---

Now go here: What Would You Do If Your Fiance Gave You A Ring That Wasn't Good Enough?



http://twitter.com/thelastpsych




Is The Cult Of Self-Esteem Ruining Our Kids?


The Effects Of Too Much Porn


------

Notes:

1.

If you want the history of engagement diamonds, Epstein writes the classic. It reveals the extent to which our social constructions are.... constructions. Highlights:

"To stabilize the market, De Beers had to endow these stones with a sentiment that would inhibit the public from ever reselling them."

So began engagement rings for the masses.  It all started in September of 1938.

The ad agency of N.W. Ayer started "a well-orchestrated advertising and public-relations campaign [to] have a significant impact on the "social attitudes of the public at large and thereby channel American spending toward larger and more expensive diamonds instead of "competitive luxuries."

...the advertising agency strongly suggested exploiting the relatively new medium of motion pictures. Movie idols, the paragons of romance for the mass audience, would be given diamonds to use as their symbols of indestructible love....

Did it work?

Toward the end of the 1950s, N. W. Ayer reported to De Beers that twenty years of advertisements and publicity had had a pronounced effect on the American psyche. "Since 1939 an entirely new generation of young people has grown to marriageable age," it said. "To this new generation a diamond ring is considered a necessity to engagements by virtually everyone." The message had been so successfully impressed on the minds of this generation that those who could not afford to buy a diamond at the time of their marriage would "defer the purchase" rather than forgo it.


2.

Off topic, but there's a masturbation competition in the US and Europe, and the world record holder went 9 hours.   Yes in fact, he was Japanese.

But the interesting thing about such a competition is that it exists.  No shame in masturbating, I guess.  "Why should there be?  We all do it."  My mom doesn't. I'll kill you.

But the lack of shame isn't what's really interesting.  What's really interesting is that the purpose of it is to masturbate together.  A previously shameful, previously solitary activity now done with other people proximate to you, but no connection is needed or even desired; the only goal is the self-pleasure, with the pretense of the camaraderie if the other skin jobs next to you.

I could say that it's a metaphor for social media, or narcissism, but it isn't a metaphor, it is the inevitable conclusion.


 









Comments

What does it say about me t... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 12:42 PM | Posted by cauchies: | Reply

What does it say about me that I imagined a fatty ugly woman? And, most important, this happening to somebody else, not me.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 23 (29 votes cast)
Whenever you mention mastur... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 12:58 PM | Posted by Anon: | Reply

Whenever you mention masturbation in your writings, you also mention either as an aside or as the main point that masturbation is correlated with/the result of narcissism. Is there such a thing as healthy self-love?

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 19 (23 votes cast)
*self-sex, rather... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 12:58 PM | Posted by Anon: | Reply

*self-sex, rather

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 5 (9 votes cast)
I imagined a soap opera act... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 1:02 PM | Posted by spriteless: | Reply

I imagined a soap opera actor. :P This is a good post, it explains what an attachment is, as well as pointing out how to notice it is lacking. Howto: notice narcissism in oneself evolved into Howto: notice narcissism and take baby steps away from it.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 0 (0 votes cast)
"what does the hypothetical... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 1:16 PM | Posted by Dan Dravot: | Reply

"what does the hypothetical woman in this story look like?"

She looks like...

a) A woman who thinks her fiancé is so whipped he'll take that kind of extreme abuse lying down. She'll resent his weakness to the point of feeling compelled to punish him for it by rubbing his face in it. You can fix that by setting clear boundaries and maintaining them consistently until she finally becomes convinced you can't be pushed around. She'll calm down then and be a lot happier and easier to get along with.

Doesn't matter what the ring communicates to her, or what man she thinks she's looking for. Women always throw out all their parameters when the right man comes along. If you're with her and you fit her parameters, she doesn't love you. Guaranteed. (Men are a bit like that too, just not as strongly). If you always do exactly what she wants, she'll think you're afraid of her. Women loathe men who are afraid to piss them off. If she loves you and you give her the wrong ring, she'll love it even more than she would the right one.

So, girls, if you don't like the ring, don't marry him.

And lads, don't waste your money.

As TLP documents, the whole thing's a pile of retarded marketing jive anyhow. Buy a cheap ring, spend the difference on coke and whores for the reception. Make it a night to remember.

b) If he's not whipped, then she expects him to go ballistic and wants him to: She's a lunatic adrenaline junkie who compulsively starts fights. Incidentally, she prefers to lose them. Can't fix that. Best bet is to leave, move, get your doors and locks upgraded, and don't keep any pet bunnies around the house.

2) Compelled, compulsive... Huh.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 7 (47 votes cast)
I had an experience that is... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 1:24 PM | Posted by ginnygeneva@gmail.com: | Reply

I had an experience that is a variant of this: I dated a man for 10 years, off and on. He had piles of money and I had absolutely nothing. He did about a zillion things for me: set me up in a little business, bought me clothes, antiques, and jewelry. We never married because we never both felt like it at the same time. Anyway, the funny part is, and by funny I mean interesting, he bought me things that were nice only when I asked. (God knows how and why I ever did ask; I was in my twenties. Nowadays, in my 40s, I'd probably open a vein and die before asking anyone for anything). So, if I asked I got nice things, but if he bought me a present 'just because' it was always something nearly worthless and tacky, and---funny part--- he always made a point of telling me how expensive it was. Diamond tennis bracelets with slightly more clarity than gravel. Fake pearl earrings. A plastic lighter he said was mother of pearl. All I can say now--- skipping the more heady psychological truths, because everyone here can access all that without my help--- is simply: I am so happy to not be in my twenties anymore!!! This kind of crap simply does not happen anymore. Things are much less complicated. It is worth it even figuring in that I'm not a hottie anymore. Yay!

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -2 (36 votes cast)
I didn't spend a dime on th... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 2:00 PM | Posted by John: | Reply

I didn't spend a dime on the ring I gave my wife, and she loves it, and I love her. But if this scenario had occurred- and I'm imagining my wife- it would have been an eye-opening event. I would have realized that she wasn't who I thought she was, and then I would've probably dumped that vapid bitch.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 15 (21 votes cast)
How about if I'm a guy carr... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 2:29 PM | Posted by vanderleun: | Reply

How about if I'm a guy carrying an AXE? Can I get her a ring the size I want then? Worked for Vikings, didn't it?

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 11 (21 votes cast)
vanderleun,Drag me... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 2:56 PM | Posted, in reply to vanderleun's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

vanderleun,

Drag me by the hair, honey...

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 11 (13 votes cast)
What if she disliked the ri... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 3:14 PM | Posted by Kejia: | Reply

What if she disliked the ring because it was too big? (She might not want to wear anything but a plain wedding band after the wedding, and would rather the two of you spent the $$$ on a house.). You would still be at fault for not knowing her, but how would that affect your perception of her?

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 28 (30 votes cast)
I posted before, but I thou... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 4:05 PM | Posted by ginnygeneva@gmail.com: | Reply

I posted before, but I thought about it a bit (while relaxing in the tub)and I don't see what the woman is doing wrong at all. I mean, the ring is a gift for her, shouldn't it be something she likes? If she is serious about the marriage, she'll have to wear it/treasure it forever, shouldn't it be something she likes? Once people get married, it is less about Big Fun and Romance, and more about compromise and struggling to communicate and managing money and children, so why can't she have a shiny trinket that reminds her of the romantic, fun stuff? ... but probably more importantly,she is being straight up (which is helpful in relationships cuz nobody is/wants to be a mind reader). The dude is the one here who is being deceptful--- and why---what is wrong with him? (The one criticism I have for the woman is, I would say 'different ring' and not 'bigger.' Guys worry about size enough as it is; why exacerbate it)?

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -14 (42 votes cast)
option D - don't buy women ... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 4:15 PM | Posted by Fella: | Reply

option D - don't buy women jewelry ... ever ... not even a wedding ring.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 2 (26 votes cast)
A bachelor never makes the ... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 4:55 PM | Posted by Claudius: | Reply

A bachelor never makes the same mistake once.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 17 (19 votes cast)
I don't see how I could put... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 5:02 PM | Posted by Washington: | Reply

I don't see how I could put myself into a marriage with a woman who needs or sees value in any size of diamond. That's not a person I want to live with for the rest of ever. I can't imagine this hypothetical scenario without also imagining me falling on my head and damaging my brain and turning into an entirely different person who would be with someone into shit like diamonds and jewelry, or at least with them for a long enough period for marriage to even come up as a possibility.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 9 (15 votes cast)
In related news, "Woman Dum... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 5:58 PM | Posted by marcus aurelius: | Reply

In related news, "Woman Dumps Man Because He Has Cancer, Still Wants His Super Bowl Tickets":

http://deadspin.com/5880284/woman-dumps-man-because-he-has-cancer-still-wants-his-super-bowl-tickets

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 9 (9 votes cast)
MA,I smell bullshi... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 6:37 PM | Posted by jimmy james: | Reply

MA,

I smell bullshit with that story... sounds like a PR stunt of some kind.

Or maybe I'm just an optimist.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 6 (8 votes cast)
Does it not strike anyone e... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 6:39 PM | Posted by chickadee: | Reply

Does it not strike anyone else as absolutely bizarre that all couples don't jointly pick out the ring that she will ostensibly be wearing day in and day out for the rest of her life?

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 32 (38 votes cast)
"Women loathe men who are a... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 8:03 PM | Posted, in reply to Dan Dravot's comment, by Richard Headrim: | Reply

"Women loathe men who are afraid to piss them off."

I guess I subscribe to that, but I'm not sure it's a one-way street. Who wants a wimp?

I went a step or two out of my way to rub a little antimatter in a girl's face the other day, complete with evidence of her conduct vs. mine. Well, she was pissed alright, but in her usual passive-aggressive who-noticed-anything way. It made for a frosty palpableness there for a moment, but everything is back to normal now.

"Well, little lady," drawled The Duke, "I guess ya know I'm not one of your short pants, Euro handbag, metro-boys now. And there's more where that came from."

Swoon.

The end.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -8 (18 votes cast)
So I'm trying to put myself... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 8:14 PM | Posted by vandal: | Reply

So I'm trying to put myself in the situation but it's hard since I'm the one with the vagina. (BTW, what's your opinion on female masturbation in the same situation? does that just become porn instead of narcissism?)

Now I've been raised my a mom and dad that didn't get married till after 20 years of being together. Then in my 10th grade year they take me down to the court house to be a witness to their marriage. My mom doesn't have an engagement ring but she does have this nice ring my dad got her for christmas once long ago that she sometimes wears. So for me this might be a bad game to play since I just think "eh, whatever" to the ring, not for any reasoning besides I'm not used to the wedding/marriage being important to a relationship.

So no matter what ring I get I'm indifferent because I'm indifferent to marriage commitments in general based on experience.

The hypothetical I'm thinking that would work for girls is later in a marriage maybe: losing weight.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 3 (19 votes cast)
The sort of woman I thought... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 8:43 PM | Posted by el baboso: | Reply

The sort of woman I thought of was the long on ambition, short on talent, climbing the corporate ladder type... I've yet to meet one that was hot. I'd like to think that was because I've spent a significant fraction of my adult life cleaning up their messes rather than any fear or narcissism on my part.

I read a piece on Martha Stewart that said she pulled precisely this (I want a bigger rock!) on her first hubby. I've never heard of it happening among any of my friends or acquaintances. I have known plenty of men who've pressured their wives to lose weight or to participate in one kind or another of open marriage.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 8 (14 votes cast)
"No guy wearing Axe who doe... (Below threshold)

January 29, 2012 10:36 PM | Posted by JohnJ: | Reply

"No guy wearing Axe who doesn't read the post before yelling."

I think you mean "No, guy wearing Axe who doesn't read the post before yelling."

But what kind of woman would be with a guy who would be with a woman as shallow as he is? And what kind of guy would etc., ad infinitum.

Oh, and your De Beers note conflates correlation with causation. If advertising were that powerful, everybody would buy everything. Advertising isn't mind control, as much as corporations wish it were.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 2 (10 votes cast)
Most of the couples I know ... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 12:40 AM | Posted by longwinded: | Reply

Most of the couples I know shopped for the ring beforehand, or he popped the question and then they got the ring together. She's supposedly going to wear it for the rest of her life (in reality, until they divorce or she's cheating or her fingers get too fat/thin, but supposedly) so it's best for her to have a say or he's going to have to buy a new one somewhere down the line. She probably knows what she wants, anyway, so that makes things easier on him.

But De Beers was wrong about the resale value, I see those things hocked all the time (online by the owners, not in pawnshops). So I guess somebody does buy those rings without consultation with their lady, just not people I know.

* because I doubt he's going to point his intended to an online ad for a "used" ring, you never know though

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 4 (6 votes cast)
"Now, she still wants the t... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 12:43 AM | Posted, in reply to marcus aurelius's comment, by Or: | Reply

"Now, she still wants the tickets because she claims they were purchased with her in mind. Rather than suffering such an injustice, Jason is auctioning the tickets off on Twitter. Whoever gets Jason the most Twitter followers by the end of the Pro Bowl will get the tickets. Currently a webcam girl is in the lead, promising five minute shows to anyone who follows Jason."

That'll teach people to quit using each other for shallow, meaningless ends!

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 9 (9 votes cast)
Maybe, the ring came from a... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 9:32 AM | Posted by Nando: | Reply

Maybe, the ring came from a law student - and she didn't want to marry someone with crushing, non-dischargeable student debt and a TTT law degree.

http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -22 (30 votes cast)
I knew you would find some ... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 10:02 AM | Posted by meistergedanken: | Reply

I knew you would find some way to make it about the guy, you douche. Is it that you [generally] find women blameless, or is that just because you know most women are batshit crazy and that we don't hold the mentally ill to the same standards that we hold rational people?

Clarification:
What about the woman who gladly accepts the ring, but then a year later - when her sister gets engaged to a wealthier man and gets a diamond twice as big - she declares she wants hers "upsized" [because, presumably, she is worth at least as much as her sister]? What's the man supposed to do then? Oh, I know: "fake it".

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -10 (30 votes cast)
I knew you would find some ... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 10:06 AM | Posted by meistergedanken: | Reply

I knew you would find some way to make it about the guy, you douche. Is it that you [generally] find women blameless, or is that just because you know most women are batshit crazy and that we don't hold the mentally ill to the same standards that we hold rational people?

Clarification:
What about the woman who gladly accepts the ring, but then a year later - when her sister gets engaged to a wealthier man and gets a diamond twice as big - she declares she wants hers "upsized" [because, presumably, she is worth at least as much as her sister]? What's the man supposed to do then? Oh, I know: "fake it".

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -12 (28 votes cast)
He shouldn't spring a ring ... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 10:10 AM | Posted by DS: | Reply

He shouldn't spring a ring out of the blue. She shouldn't expect him to read her mind. If the ring scenario arises at all, they ought not get married simply because their communication sucks.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 6 (10 votes cast)
I agree with the other comm... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 10:45 AM | Posted by Elisabeth: | Reply

I agree with the other commenters who are asking why *he's* the one picking it out.

He's just going to give her a ring, and she has to wear it every day for the rest of her life, whether she likes it or not? And if she doesn't like it, then *she's* vapid and he has to dump her?

Why not ask her, then agree on a price limit before either shopping together or letting her go alone? I can't see how it would spoil the fantasy that much.

But if (both of) you are so enamoured with the idea of the fairytale engagement, wedding etc., then the problem is not so much either of your personalities, as that neither of you are mature enough to marry anyone at all.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 19 (23 votes cast)
I think it's more a reactio... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 10:56 AM | Posted, in reply to meistergedanken's comment, by Elisabeth: | Reply

I think it's more a reaction to the whining and self pity from the men in this scenario.

Imagine this: You date her. For a long time. You presumably know this woman - and if you don't, you're marrying someone you don't know very well. Which is on you.

You choose to ask her to marry you. You choose to buy the ring without asking her. You choose to make her acceptance (or the lack thereof) of the ring an indicator of her character and her love for you. (Which you should have some idea of before this.)

There is no way in this scenario that the man has been blindsided. He has made choices to be with this woman. He bears at least half of the responsibility. Which is why it's ridiculous to aim the anger at the woman.

I rejected modern feminism long ago, because of all the whining and pity parties. I reject the men's right/feminism backlash for the same reasons.

You, from your comment, clearly disdain women. But men are grown ups and responsible for their own lives. If you are unhappily married, it's almost always 50% your own fault. And I am sick of men whining that they are more rational/intelligent/stronger/whatever than women, but that they somehow can't say no to these women.

If, in your ridiculous little example, you see yourself as the rational, put upon one, then you need to grow a pair and say no.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 35 (45 votes cast)
"These hypotheticals are... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 11:48 AM | Posted by Guy Fox: | Reply

"These hypotheticals are dreams. The lesson isn't what you would do; but how did you construct the fantasy to allow you to do it? That tells you who you are."

That's mighty insightful and even useful, BUT:

Why am I in a restaurant? Where did the tears come from? Why are all these people around, and why is the applause fake? Why is she guessing the number of karats at all? Oh right! Because of:

"She covers her mouth with her hands and looks shocked. Tears. Oh my God. She can't believe you did this. (Yes she can.) She says yes. (Not like there was any doubt.) The other men in the restaurant join their wives in polite fake applause, albeit less enthusiastically. Congratulations, they say. They don't mean it.

Through dinner she turns her hand every which way. It's so beautiful. It's so clear. How many karats is it, is it ____? and the number she guesses will be off by one. Of course."

It was never my dream, which is to say that I may have been the dreamer, but you were the architect.

You know, I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. even when the steak is a woman I would never meet in a place I would never go. Caveat emptor.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 4 (12 votes cast)
Nothing says love like, "I'... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 12:42 PM | Posted by David M Allen, M.D.: | Reply

Nothing says love like, "I'm willing to waste a lot of money (that could be used for something useful) on a big rock."

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 3 (15 votes cast)
Guys-? Spoiler Alert: dude'... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 12:49 PM | Posted by GINNYGENEVA@GMAIL.COM: | Reply

Guys-? Spoiler Alert: dude's a narcissist. Not a narcissist in the sense that everyone is a narcissist (which they are)but a pathological narcissist. I don't want to explain this, because it is tiresome and because it seems anyone paying attention to TLP's blog should be able to figure it out. But if enough people say so I'll explain it. It will take some time (ugh). And thought and writing skills (double ugh). ... the other thing I want to say is, people will judge and make decisions about this girl for the rest of her life based on this ring. It doesn't matter if that makes them superficial; what matters is her, she matters because you love her and care about her well-being. Dudes who hit on her will check out the ring. If she seems unhappy or not taken care of, dudes will hit on her more aggressively. If she is wearing a nice ring, people will figure she has someone looking out for her, at least. This may sound dumb but it isn't; people who notice will treat her better.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -11 (19 votes cast)
I'm thinking that this issu... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 2:11 PM | Posted by Medusa: | Reply

I'm thinking that this issue is in the air because apparently a couple of days ago Jessica Biel allegedly rejected Justin Timberlake's ring because the rock wasn't big enough. I assume the radio show TLP is talking about was referring to this.

The source says: "When Justin proposed to Jessica, she was disappointed with his choice of ring. Jessica isn't a fancy girl, but she wanted something stunning -- a bigger diamond that would impress her friends. Instead, Justin went more minimal, thinking she'd prefer something less flashy."

I don't know Jessica so I would have no way of knowing if this "impressing her friends" bit is the real reason, but it doesn't really matter, because either way this is a perfect example, as per this post, of why these two should never get married.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 1 (9 votes cast)
GG@GmailSomewhere ... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 3:51 PM | Posted, in reply to GINNYGENEVA@GMAIL.COM's comment, by The Least: | Reply

GG@Gmail

Somewhere between all those ughs, there was an offer to interpret your diagnosis with the other N-word.

Between Lonely, people like you, Christopher Lasch, etc., the path gets sunnier. The thing with TLP is its BOGO quality: buy personal Narcissism, get cultural N. for free. Or vice-versa. Personally, I am challenged by both showing some symptoms, like occasional extreme assholiness and disregard for others, but not with the parts that chooses image over self, or the one where there is no self-inspection. Lay on ADD and some early religious guilting instruction, Father Knows Best, and The Lone Ranger, blah, blah, blah.

I don't know how typical that list of ailments is among TLP types, but we all come from a context. Every function has an equal dysfunction.

Here's a question. On a ten scale, how narcissistic is the American culture?

Ugh. Thanks. Ugh.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -2 (8 votes cast)
You: Me, Me, Me, I, I, I. N... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 5:00 PM | Posted, in reply to vandal's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

You: Me, Me, Me, I, I, I. Nobody matters but you. Nothing matters but you.

You missed the point. Try again. Here´s your first assignment: Without using any self referential pronouns describe the guy, his motivations, and his relationship with the woman.

Extra credit: read about other people´s reactions, and try to understand them without going back to yourself.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 5 (9 votes cast)
jesus f'ing christ nando, y... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 5:25 PM | Posted, in reply to Nando's comment, by nando_is_a_dick: | Reply

jesus f'ing christ nando, you're a dick.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 4 (6 votes cast)
The irony here, is that you... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 5:28 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Medusa: | Reply

The irony here, is that you cannot see how narcissistic your own comment is.

Some people around here are so unwittingly up narcissism's ass that they can't see the narcissism in pointing out everyone else's narcissism, especially in such a condescending way.

"Here, let me educate you, poor little school girl"

Narcissism is not some mathematical code you can measure by counting the number of first person pronouns, or whatever other 'rules' you think you have learned here.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 10 (12 votes cast)
Our esteem of engagement ri... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 5:35 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Our esteem of engagement rings and luxurious weddings hampers young couples. Whereas most of our ancestors married young and stayed together, nowadays, couples must wait until their 30s to achieve the engagement and wedding, as advertised. Society seems to encourage delaying marriage or forgoing completely. Consequently, adolescence is extended far into the twenties, which contributes to narcissistic tendencies.

Also, child rearing is a thing of the 30 and 40 somethings, who have children at greater risk for birth defects and autism.

Perhaps there was some wisdom in marrying younger.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 10 (12 votes cast)
How narcissistic is America... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 5:40 PM | Posted, in reply to The Least's comment, by ginnygeneva@gmail.com: | Reply

How narcissistic is American culture? ... I don't know. I've never been out of the United States. Some states seem more narcissistic than others, I guess. (I'm blessed; live in the best state there is, Chicago). (OOOOPS- ha ha, I mean Illinois). ... Um, yeah, and I don't like sociology, at all. I don't like Christopher Lasch either!! I do like TLP though, and Alice Miller. ... and Melanie Klein. ... I did a random survey around my building asking about engagement rings and was surprised by how romantic and idealized the guys answers were--it seriously touched my heart. ...My experience with personal narcissism is just, I like positive mirroring (it was noted on my chart from Northwestern). (I still feel kinda odd about it: what am I supposed to like, negative mirroring? Neutral mirroring? That's hilarious). Outside of that, I can't say much. Horribly abused as a child, I give myself credit for simply being alive, 'good enough' and not too crazy. ...Here is a question for you: how narcissistic is TLP's fan base, and why?

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -9 (13 votes cast)
JohnJ :"Oh, and your De Be... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 5:47 PM | Posted, in reply to JohnJ's comment, by V.V.: | Reply

JohnJ :"Oh, and your De Beers note conflates correlation with causation. If advertising were that powerful, everybody would buy everything. "

Advertising doesn't have to always control minds. Sometimes it has a really good idea that resonates with people in a big splash, and the concentric after-waves keep lapping onto the shore. Basically, one big sale idea, one time.

Advertising is fleeting, but a diamond is forever.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 3 (7 votes cast)
Here is a question for y... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 5:53 PM | Posted, in reply to ginnygeneva@gmail.com's comment, by Medusa: | Reply

Here is a question for you: how narcissistic is TLP's fan base, and why?

Fuck, that would be a great blog topic. Meta-one-upmanship, ho!

But not for TLP to write, because if he's writing it, it's for him.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 8 (10 votes cast)
@GGGmail,On the ph... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 7:11 PM | Posted, in reply to ginnygeneva@gmail.com's comment, by The Least: | Reply

@GGGmail,

On the phone the other day, speaking with a total stranger about a computer matter, I mentioned TLP. He clicked on and after a moment said someting to the effect of, "Boy, this really is something else."

The mix of contributors, from professional shrinks, to wannabe blowhards is hard to paint with broad strokes. Most people care about something, and virtually all of us are relating subject matter to ourselves, both of which is normal. I am not trained, so I won't embarrass the other amateur TLP fans with theories and diagnoses from Narcissism For Idiots.

I think most readers are women for two reasons. First, women are more likely to admit there is a problem and seek help than men, in my experience. Second, victims are more likely to seek help than perps. Which is not to suggest that narcissism isn't an equal opportunity disorder.

Sometimes I get the feeling that there are a lot of young women 20-40 who are feeling like something big is missing and the idiot they're with isn't helping matters. And neither, in some cases, is their willingness to play the vic. Once a seeker opens that can of worms, it is time to fish or cut bait. It's easier just to bail out.

I also think there are some really brave people asking hard questions of themselves here. Lonely says he want to help. That's why he put out the shingle.
He took over for Lucy after Charles Schultz went to cartoon heaven.

Good grief.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 0 (8 votes cast)
Thanks, Medusa and The Leas... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 8:04 PM | Posted by ginnygeneva@gmail.com: | Reply

Thanks, Medusa and The Least. It's fun to connect with a couple people... You know what bugs me? TLP calling himself 'Alone.' Nobody really wants to be alone, no matter what they say. It worries me. Shrinks have to watch it psychologically--- there is a high rate of suicide. Maybe if I understood the quotation at the top of the page I'd look at it differently though. I'm gonna go look it up.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -3 (5 votes cast)
Wovon man nicht sprechen ka... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 8:22 PM | Posted by ginnygeneva@gmail.com: | Reply

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, daruber muss man schweigenn the TLP comment) in English: What we cannot speak of we must pass over in silence. (Or: Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.)It is the philosopher Wittgenstein.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -2 (8 votes cast)
You know what bugs me? T... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 8:35 PM | Posted, in reply to ginnygeneva@gmail.com's comment, by Medusa: | Reply

You know what bugs me? TLP calling himself 'Alone.'

That's always bugged me too. It strikes me as very Zarathustran in it's most self-romanticizing 'Lone Ranger' sense (to steal The Least's reference) with a slight bit of victimhood thrown in for good measure. Merely uninformed speculation, though, which probably says more about me than it does about him.

Hell, my name is Medusa.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 8 (10 votes cast)
Alone is OK, he has us for ... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 8:57 PM | Posted, in reply to Medusa's comment, by The Least: | Reply

Alone is OK, he has us for comic relief.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 6 (8 votes cast)
God- obviously I have an is... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 9:20 PM | Posted, in reply to ginnygeneva@gmail.com's comment, by ginnygeneva@gmail.com: | Reply

God- obviously I have an issue, I'm replying to my own post . Ok, I found this interpretation of the Wittgenstein quotation on the internet: 'Wittgenstein believed that arrays of facts justified the truth of propositions. The Tractatus was rather sketchily and abstractly written. The Tractatus concludes rather mysteriously that "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent." -- a sign of Wittgenstein's belief that the world held many mysteries of which it was more appropriate not to speak.' Um, mystery like the mystery of love? I mean, sure, you can tell reasons you love someone, but there used to be this idea that it was bigger than that even, maybe even a proof of God of sorts ('she was made for me!'etc). This is interesting: if there is an opposite of narcissism, it surely must be love. But If Wittgenstein really believed one 'should not' speak, instead of 'cannot fully explain' that seems kind weird.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -2 (8 votes cast)
I take it as a sort of Plat... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 9:34 PM | Posted, in reply to ginnygeneva@gmail.com's comment, by Medusa: | Reply

I take it as a sort of Platonic "Don't act like a know-it-all. It only makes you an ass."

Or, like the Tetragrammaton. The true name of God of which one is not qualified, or even able, to speak or even know. With a touch of the sentiment of the Serenity Prayer. Accepting that you don't know what you cannot know, therefore can't name, and therefore cannot speak of because there is no word. Which, of course, extends to all secular matters as well.

The tldr; version for the severely ADD: "Don't bullshit."

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 4 (8 votes cast)
Oh, wow, I have never met a... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 9:53 PM | Posted by ginnygeneva@gmail.com: | Reply

Oh, wow, I have never met anyone else who knew what the Tetragrammaton was! Plato to Tetragrammaton to Serenity Prayer to Don't bullshit. I like it.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 0 (8 votes cast)
I discovered this site on F... (Below threshold)

January 30, 2012 11:53 PM | Posted by Mucius Porsena: | Reply

I discovered this site on Friday. I've read at least a quarter of the posts so far. I stumbled upon it because I'm considering going into psychiatry; I stayed for the Wittgenstein (I wrote my undergraduate thesis on the Tractatus, this time last year).

These remarks from that book probably shed a little light on what Alone means by choosing that as his nom de plume:

5.6
"*The limits of my language* mean the limits of my world."
5.62
"This remark provides a key to the question, to what extent solipsism is a truth.
"In fact what solipsism means, is quite correct, only it cannot be said, but it shows itself.
"That the world is my world, shows itself in the fact that the limits of the language (the language which I understand) mean the limits of my world."
5.621
"The world and life are one."
5.63
"I am the world. (The microcosm.)"

I don't get the sense that Alone is "all alone in the world," finding strength in cynicism, because his "cure" for narcissism basically boils down to: care about other people, especially your family members, and value those you love higher than you value your self(-image). I can't imagine Alone is able to be so eloquent on this issue if he hasn't spent a considerable amount of time overcoming it in himself (for the commenters across the site who've accused him of being a narcissist whenever they don't understand what he's saying). (I don't think he thinks he's Zarathustra.)

To respond to those just above in this thread, "Wovon man..." can be glossed as "Don't bullshit", but only in light of the well-understood caveat that it is very difficult, perhaps one of the greatest intellectual (and moral) achievements, to see nonsense clearly, especially one's own nonsense, and refrain from projecting more of it into the world.

I was going to talk about myself, and all the ways what Alone has to say illuminate my own problems. But I realized my motivation for that was completely narcissistic. Just projecting an image to gratify myself. (It's amazing how this even works when we're doing it anonymously, textually--really reinforces how such impulses are *all about me* and not at all about the other people in the conversation.)

So instead I'll just say, thank you, Alone, you've been writing exactly what this young man needed to read right now.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 8 (10 votes cast)
To respond to those just... (Below threshold)

January 31, 2012 12:38 AM | Posted, in reply to Mucius Porsena's comment, by Medusa: | Reply

To respond to those just above in this thread, "Wovon man..." can be glossed as "Don't bullshit", but only in light of the well-understood caveat that it is very difficult, perhaps one of the greatest intellectual (and moral) achievements, to see nonsense clearly, especially one's own nonsense, and refrain from projecting more of it into the world.

That's what I was getting at, thank you.

Razor's edge!

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 0 (2 votes cast)
My dad bought my mum a simp... (Below threshold)

January 31, 2012 7:51 AM | Posted by Rookie: | Reply

My dad bought my mum a simple, plain but wide (say 1/3 inch for you yankees) ring made by a jeweler who just sliced off a bit of gold tube. They told me a story about her losing it on the honeymoon scuba diving when it fell off her finger. They found it sitting on a finger of coral. A few years ago, she had the diamonds from her mother's wedding ring set into it.

It's a simple ring with a history to it that's grown and changed over the years. It symbolises the (not perfect, but good on the balance) partnership my parents have made.

It's still a symbol, and therefore a semiotic to a real thing (i.e. pointless), but it's a humble symbol with a cool history. I think that kinda right... :)

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 12 (12 votes cast)
I liked your post, thanks f... (Below threshold)

January 31, 2012 9:23 AM | Posted, in reply to Mucius Porsena's comment, by ginnygeneva@gmail.com: | Reply

I liked your post, thanks for the remarks about Wittgenstein. (It is not at all what I eventually saw in it so it is nice to have an alternative, especially). I think you're maybe a little off about what you say about talking about yourself being narcissistic (especially because the example you give is so not pathological-sounding). I think you're being hard on yourself.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 0 (2 votes cast)
Oh, I was definitely going ... (Below threshold)

January 31, 2012 10:14 AM | Posted, in reply to ginnygeneva@gmail.com's comment, by Mucius Porsena: | Reply

Oh, I was definitely going to write some narcissistic shit. Own-horn-tootin'. Not saying I'm a pathological narcissist, but some strong tendencies are there. Alone's writings have allowed me to put a label on an aspect of myself that I've known is a big problem, but that I didn't understand. I'm not always walking around imagining I'm the star of my own movie, but sometimes, yea, for sure.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -1 (7 votes cast)
Well, you know best. Just c... (Below threshold)

January 31, 2012 10:45 AM | Posted, in reply to Mucius Porsena's comment, by ginnygeneva@gmail.com: | Reply

Well, you know best. Just curious but how do you differentiate from your 'image of yourself' versus who you *really* are?

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 3 (5 votes cast)
Along with Rookie here, I'l... (Below threshold)

January 31, 2012 11:53 AM | Posted by Bill: | Reply

Along with Rookie here, I'll chime in with my own use of the engagement diamond as powerful symbol... after all our lives are mostly driven and made meaningful through symbols of all sorts.

My wife and I came together after both having endured abusive marriages at the hands of spouses well-described in the DSM. The engagement ring her abuser originally gave her was distinctly modest (not a clue to future abuse, of course), but the act of taking those stones and using them as peripheral decoration for the ring I gave her, one she chose and loves, stands as constant reminder of her history and our lives on a new track. No doubt Debeers is happy, but it works for our little lives. And I'm grateful they didn't make wicker engagement rings stylish.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 3 (3 votes cast)
That's not the distinction ... (Below threshold)

January 31, 2012 2:07 PM | Posted, in reply to ginnygeneva@gmail.com's comment, by Mucius Porsena: | Reply

That's not the distinction I was trying to make. It's the motivation, not the content. The question is: Does what I'm thinking of writing benefit the conversation, or is it to make myself feel good (projection)? The absurdity I wanted to highlight is that even commenting anonymously on blogs, projecting certain self-images still does play into a narcissistic tendency--but one the other hand, it's also easier to catch, because so little is at stake.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 2 (4 votes cast)
My problem with this post i... (Below threshold)

January 31, 2012 2:19 PM | Posted by TheRamblingFool: | Reply

My problem with this post is that it *wasn't* my hypothetical. It was yours, and you pushed it onto me.

You say that the conclusion is that I am the kind of man who wants that kind of woman... But I see narcissism's touch in your construction of this hypothetical.

My first thought, personally, when I was faced with your hypothetical wasn't "DUMP THAT BITCH!"... It was "why am I with this kind of woman in the first place???"

Essentially, what you are saying is: hypothetically, you are this type of person. Therefore, it follows that you are this type of person.

No shit.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -1 (5 votes cast)
You could stand to revamp y... (Below threshold)

January 31, 2012 3:34 PM | Posted by BHE: | Reply

You could stand to revamp your comments section. You're getting popular enough that there are about 1,000 of them before I have the time to read your latest post, and I never have the time to read all the comments to make sure that what I'd like to say hasn't already been said. Not that I have any real solutions. But in the very least replies could be tied to the original comment.

Have you ever asked yourself what you want to be true? And therefore why it is you pick these kinds of scenarios to illustrate your points? Do you want to think of the whole world as a bunch of self-absorbed asshats; does having that world view help you live with yourself in some way?

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 2 (4 votes cast)
The first bit of text is st... (Below threshold)

January 31, 2012 3:51 PM | Posted, in reply to TheRamblingFool's comment, by Medusa: | Reply

The first bit of text is strangely manipulative. It's written in narrative form, but not from the point of view of the woman or the man. Yet it displays a confident cynicism and a bitter sarcasm, which is most definitely someone's subjective perspective.

Most notably, this:

The other men in the restaurant join their wives in polite fake applause, albeit less enthusiastically.

I have to ask myself who that 'someone' is, as the use of the word 'fake' is a value judgement. I have to wonder if it merely serves the function of backing up an already-formed world view, but sort of through a sneaky side door.

Regardless of the validity of the conclusion, the argument is tainted.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 2 (8 votes cast)
But in the very least re... (Below threshold)

January 31, 2012 3:59 PM | Posted, in reply to BHE's comment, by Medusa: | Reply

But in the very least replies could be tied to the original comment.

They are. Scan the comment headings.

I've found that all comment UIs have their drawbacks. If replies where threaded, it can get annoying to have to basically reread the entire thread to catch new replies under a comment.

I do think the point system is ironic, though.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 0 (2 votes cast)
<a href="http://www.oprah.c... (Below threshold)

January 31, 2012 5:31 PM | Posted by ginnygeneva@gmail.com: | Reply

http://www.oprah.com/relationships/The-Narcissistic-Personality-Inventory-Dr-Drew-Pinsky ... I took the NPI today, for fun. Shrinks use it. I'm feeling kind of bad about using the N word... I read something cool on Oprah.com, it said if you have narcissistic traits and it is becoming a problem, try to laugh at yourself and talk to other people about it, make it a little entertaining story. (My friend said that maybe if I become an expert at narcissism I could go on Oprah, and I said, "No, I'm going to have *my own* show.")This makes sense to me. Acceptance is important! Oh-please read the article by the doctor before you take the test--- one time I thought I was autistic based on some tests. It made me cry. I don't want anyone to get all upset about their test results. I also read today that feeling great about yourself is, according to Freud, healthy. I assume he meant that feeling great about yourself sometimes is healthy. ? He believed in healthy narcissism.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -3 (5 votes cast)
What if you thought she was... (Below threshold)

January 31, 2012 8:11 PM | Posted by Jay: | Reply

What if you thought she was a bit slow?

I've only seriously considered buying a ring for one woman (I decided against). In this situation, I'm pretty sure she'd have behaved nicely. About a week later, she would have claimed to be allergic to the metal (or it was uncomfortable, or something) and taken me back to the jeweler.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -2 (4 votes cast)
I don't understand what you... (Below threshold)

January 31, 2012 11:29 PM | Posted, in reply to Jay's comment, by ginnygeneva@gmail.com: | Reply

I don't understand what you're asking. I mean, as far as I think I get it, you're entitled to your feelings. 'She was slow.' It isn't even a value judgment, at least not to me, you just think it'd be better if she did it right away.? Well, you could tell her that: the wonderful world of communication, so much fun. "Yo, I would have liked to hear this sooner." Fair enough.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 1 (5 votes cast)
His heart deseves to be cru... (Below threshold)

February 1, 2012 6:02 AM | Posted by Magnum Optimus Prime: | Reply

His heart deseves to be crushed with the same force of pressure as that rock.

Buy a kitten instead. And call it Cosmo.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 1 (3 votes cast)
You imagined her to be h... (Below threshold)

February 1, 2012 8:30 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

You imagined her to be hot.....ter than you. You did this because only a really hot chick, a kind of woman, would reject a ring because it wasn't big enough.

Nah, I imagined her average looking, but kind of dumb and a little lacking in class. You know, the type that might be thinking more about the wedding than the marriage.

I'd agree though if this was real, and you didn't know she would feel this way about the engagement ring, not even an inkling that you needed to suss out what kind of ring she was hoping for because she might have some expectations that are important to her, then most likely you've been ignoring a lot of signs along the way.


Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -1 (3 votes cast)
I seem to be the only one w... (Below threshold)

February 1, 2012 9:55 AM | Posted by Samson J.: | Reply

I seem to be the only one who imagined the woman to be slightly less attractive than average. I thought she said what she said as a sort of defence mechanism: "I know I'm a little ugly but I'm going to *demand* a better ring so that if I get it - if he actually gives in to my demands - I'll receive a corresponding self-esteem boost."

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -3 (5 votes cast)
I did not picture her as ug... (Below threshold)

February 1, 2012 10:28 AM | Posted by ginnygeneva@gmail.com: | Reply

I did not picture her as ugly or pretty, but I did see her as confident and a realistic self-assessor...I didn't really assume her sense of self-worth was based on her looks. I did figure that, well, the ring and the ceremony are basically girl things. In a social norm sort of way. So I wouldn't expect the dude to necessarily understand why (and definitely not to judge it). I wanted a bigger ring. I wouldn't expect to have to explain it. I would expect him to know it wasn't a reflection on him. If he could do it, I'd expect him to do it. Then I'd be happy and grateful and try to show it (cook extra nice dinner or whatever). I'm willing to accept being called sexist. (So?!)

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 1 (5 votes cast)
It has been a long time, bu... (Below threshold)

February 1, 2012 10:44 AM | Posted, in reply to Medusa's comment, by ginnygeneva@gmail.com: | Reply

It has been a long time, but does anyone remember In Praise of Folly (Erasmus)? That is my comment. .. Also, did the concept of projection even exist back then? ... I guess it must have, it is Wittgenstein and I don't think he's that old. ...and it was Vienna... Isn't it all really just relative anyway? Kind of a pick-and-choose your battles in trying not to be a narcissistic asshole thing? Cuz I can't think of a single non-narcissist (even Jesus) but I can think of many people with marked narcissistic characteristics who I love or admire or who just make me laugh...

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -2 (2 votes cast)
'I'm saying that if you spr... (Below threshold)

February 1, 2012 7:03 PM | Posted by Marco: | Reply

'I'm saying that if you spring a ring on a woman which you already know is less than what she wanted, hoping that she'll be satisfied but not sure if she'll be satisfied, then the problem isn't the ring, the problem is you.'

Wait, are we still talking about dick here? I'm confused.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 0 (2 votes cast)
I like sparkly. So my sterl... (Below threshold)

February 2, 2012 1:04 AM | Posted by Ohbother: | Reply

I like sparkly. So my sterling engagement ring has a nice big cubic zirconia and a couple of tiny pink garnets at the side. Inexpensive, but oh so pretty, and I like it a lot. I don't really care about the whole diamond thing...but like I said, I DO like sparkly.

Since I hope I'm wearing it until I die, we talked about it in advance and agreed that we'd go together and look at stuff until I figured out what I wanted. Unless you have an heirloom ring, why would you do it otherwise? And still, I'd want to talk about the heirloom ring FIRST.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 3 (3 votes cast)
'What does she look like?'<... (Below threshold)

February 2, 2012 1:28 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

'What does she look like?'
You rather set the reader up Alone.
If you ask someone to imagine the night that they propose, leading them through an evening of dinner and good company, you are inviting them to fantasize.
We all, especially that Japanese champion, have fantasies that are sexual. Most of the time, we will imagine people that we know, and sometimes hypothetical, beautiful women. A man who fantasizes about sex with hypothetical unattractive women does so for a definite reason.
And so, when we are asked to imagine the night we propose, we will think of someone beautiful, or someone we know, or we should wonder why, and wonder hard.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -1 (1 votes cast)
This is pathetic. The psych... (Below threshold)

February 3, 2012 6:25 AM | Posted by S: | Reply

This is pathetic. The psychobabble notion that "everyone knows exactly what kind of person they're with" is -- well, it's a partial truth, but then again, a stopped clock is right at least twice a day, too.

So cynical, and so naive at the same time. I rather pity the author.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -1 (3 votes cast)
In the example above, wh... (Below threshold)

February 3, 2012 3:23 PM | Posted by DGS: | Reply

In the example above, what did she look like? You imagined her to be hot.....ter than you.

Wrong.

First cute brunette..then redhead, then a black girl. Why not?

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -2 (2 votes cast)
Hey, everyone! As a young w... (Below threshold)

February 9, 2012 3:05 PM | Posted by Allie Celeste: | Reply

Hey, everyone! As a young woman who hopes to be married, hopefully sooner rather than later, I have a question.

I am a regular girl in many ways- like little kids, puppies, romance and cooking- but I really don't want to get a diamond engagement ring from my future husband. Don't get me wrong, I think it's very romantic to get a piece of jewelry from a man, and I love the symbolism involved. However: 1. Diamonds are unreasonably expensive; 2. Even those diamonds that are deemed "fair trade" have caused a history of gruesome wars and lung cancer for the mine workers- not romantic imagery; 3. Why would I carry something so expensive on my person? God forbid I lose it or it gets stolen and; 4. For the purposes of pretty jewelry, diamonds aren't actually superior to anything. The vast majority of people can't even tell which one's real and which one's not. What I want is a ring made out of a noble metal and a real stone. Silver and a semi-precious gemstone would be great. I think it's reasonable to spend a couple of hundreds of dollars on such a symbolic gift to make sure that the handiwork is really beautiful.

The question is... how does a girl bring this up? Even if I think that my man will propose soon, isn't it rude and vulgar to act like I assume that he will? The ring is supposed to be a surprise. If the woman really loves the man, she should be overjoyed to be presented with any ring because of what it represents. And I will be except... it's such an unnecessary waste of money if it's a diamond. What if the conversation later that evening were about trading the diamond for a moonstone,so no one would go into debt, or so the couple could take a longer honeymoon instead? (I think that between the ring, the wedding and the honeymoon, honeymoon is the most important part. While weddings are, basically, shows for other people, and they all look stressful and a little embarrassing, honeymoon is the time when the couple gets to enjoy each other, bond more and make shared memories.) Still, isn't it tacky to ask to exchange a romantic gift, for any reason?

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 1 (1 votes cast)
These are important things ... (Below threshold)

February 26, 2012 7:54 AM | Posted, in reply to Allie Celeste's comment, by kejia: | Reply

These are important things to talk about before you get engaged, particularly your financial goals. If you are serious about a person then before you commit to a long-term relationship you should make sure you are on the same page. Talk about where you want to be in the future and how you want to get there -- what you are doing to achieve this, not what you hope someone will do for you. Talk generally about your beliefs about fair trade and worker conditions. See if he or she has compatible goals and beliefs.

Once the two of you have shared your general viewpoints, it will be natural, if a friend (or celebrity) gets engaged, to talk about how the tradition of a diamond engagement ring troubles you, and how you wish the tradition were different. Say that you would never feel comfortable wearing such, making sure the focus is on yor beliefs not your wants. At the least, if your beloved does impulsively buy you a diamond ring, you can remind him of your opinions on the diamond trade.

And if after all this he doesn't understand, then this is a good warning flag about the marriage, and if you do march down the aisle, be prepared for the day your beloved comes home with the expensive mountain bike you did not talk about beforehand.

Disclaimer: My hsband and I had a 10 day engagement 21 years ago. We did not have time to pick out a ring, and I still wear the ring we were married in, a ring that my grandfather bought for my father to give to my mother.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 1 (1 votes cast)
Wow. Imagine if that happen... (Below threshold)

February 29, 2012 6:34 AM | Posted by Arvin @ marriage counseling: | Reply

Wow. Imagine if that happened. That tells a lot about the girlfriend. I probably will try to understand why. But deep inside, that's really gotta hurt.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 1 (1 votes cast)
Bienvenue à - <a h... (Below threshold)

May 2, 2012 11:47 PM | Posted by TN NIKE PAS CHER: | Reply


Bienvenue à - http://www.tnstocker.com ----

meilleur sevice de la manière suivante:

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 1 (1 votes cast)
Well, I guess I should iden... (Below threshold)

November 9, 2012 6:58 PM | Posted by tornpapernapkin: | Reply

Well, I guess I should identify myself as a woman or else my post won't make sense, but I found this really interesting. I can't really relate to either, so it's a strange exercise. I can't put myself in the place of the woman because to me the engagement ring is about the man. The woman is just kind of kidding herself and letting herself buy into a sort of materialistic fantasy about what it means to be a woman and how that's powerful when it isn't.

The ring to me is a sign of ownership. The man is sending a signal to other men that this woman is his. The bigger the symbol either the more rich the man wants to appear to others. If the woman is beautiful or ugly it doesn't matter, what matters is he owns her now.

I don't mean this in a man-hating way. I'm ambivalent about rings personally. When I got one I had bought it myself out of a sense of duty to tradition and I paid less than 500 for it, then had the gumption to be hurt when my friend made fun of it for being so small. But this is because my ex was a man who did not like rings, but who felt ashamed to be a man who didn't think he should have to buy a ring and so wanted one but didn't want one also. I thought the best way to solve this was to buy one so he didn't have to, but not to waste much money on it, and then to be REALLY happy about it so he'd feel good. So, now you know how I got divorced too I guess.

Anyway, I now feel like the ring that gets bought is more a reflection of what sort of signal the man wants to send. Does the woman even matter really? Is she just kidding herself by saying she cares? So then maybe in this situation, by caring enough to be critical, she is offensive because she's breaking out of her role.

She's really caring about the ring. She's really caring about the ring when she's not supposed to really care about *the RING* because the only important person involved in the ring is the man. She's just the vessel for carrying his message.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 0 (0 votes cast)
Sorry about the poor editin... (Below threshold)

November 9, 2012 7:00 PM | Posted by tornpapernapkin: | Reply

Sorry about the poor editing.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 0 (0 votes cast)
This was my case, too, and ... (Below threshold)

January 20, 2013 10:29 PM | Posted, in reply to Allie Celeste's comment, by Sarah: | Reply

This was my case, too, and I'm now happily married (and I had just the right sort of engagement ring). For us, bringing up the fact that I didn't want diamonds was easy enough - it was probably just walking past a jeweler's at the mall. We had simple couple rings already, just sterling with a band of black carbon, and I told my then-boyfriend that it would be nice to save the money and just use those as our engagement rings. So, around a year later when he actually proposed, we were sitting at lunch and he asked me to pass my ring back to him... you get the picture!
I won't lie, for about a tenth of a second, I was disappointed that there would be no surprise... and then I realized that it actually meant alot about the kind of relationship I wanted - that he would listen to me, and that we weren't going to play a ton of games - no guesswork. If I want something from him, I ask for it, and vice versa. The sincerity is astounding and I had no idea how much it meant to me. It also makes me realize my responsibility in my actions - I absolutely deserved that 10th of a second of disappointment, since it's exactly what I asked for.
So, hopefully, if/when your young man proposes, he will have listened to you (assuming that you discussed what type of ring you'd like). If not, then you need to ask yourself whether the fit is right... good luck!

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 1 (1 votes cast)
I spent the first year with... (Below threshold)

January 5, 2014 1:19 AM | Posted, in reply to Dan Dravot's comment, by Ladywolf: | Reply

I spent the first year with my boyfriend pushing his boundries and driving him insane, fortunately there was sex and we sincerely enjoyed each others company. Once he made his boundries clear to me, our relationship became better and I respect him more. And it's not a "the man needs to make rules for his woman thing". It's an equal partnership. So i agree withh your comment. Screw the ring and spend it on your honeymoon.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 1 (1 votes cast)

Post a Comment


Live Comment Preview

April 16, 2014 03:15 AM | Posted by Anonymous: