February 15, 2011

The Effects Of Too Much Porn: "He's Just Not That Into Anyone"

porn_viewer_nymag.jpgthat would be a gross misrepresentation of the facts



Imagine you are the editor of New York Magazine.  You want a story that will generate buzz but no one wants to hear how hard it is to be a parent in Manhattan-- so porn it is.  How about an article about how porn is making real sex less interesting to men?  Conventional wisdom at $3 an issue.  Nice.

Gotta have pics.  You can't show porn only because the advertisers don't like it.  So how about some "photographs of men watching online pornography, taken January 25"?

Sweet.  Let's get five random guys and set them in front of the Pornotron:


nymag_porn_users.jpg

An observation.  The top guy looks like Dexter, which is good because they are all obviously serial killers.   What's the message here?  That porn leads to meth?

II.

You've read the same thesis before: too much porn leads to too much masturbation and there's no cum left for the ladies, resulting in sadness and gnashing of teeth. 

The article is written by Davy Rothbart, and is a mixture of personal anecdotes, interviews, and expert commentary from a key celebrity, in this case John Mayer.

It's not like there's anything in the article to dispute, it happened to him, he's spelling it all out for you in graphic detail.  Too much porn made it impossible for him to perform with women.  Here he is able to bone up but unable to hose down.  

Had I just given up, things might have played out the way they often did, with shades of confused disappointment and inadequacy on the part of the woman and mumbled apologies and awkward shame from me. But that night, ingenuity struck--unable to actually get off, I found myself flying a fresh route: I faked it.
That's right, he faked an orgasm during a one night stand because porn ruined it for him.

And here he quotes some guy named Perry:

"I used to race home to have sex with my wife," says Perry, a 41-year-old lawyer. "Now I leave work a half-hour early so I can get home before she does and masturbate to porn." Throughout the course of our conversation, Perry insists that he's still attracted to his wife of twelve years. Still, he says, she can't quite measure up to the porn stars he views  online. "Not to be mean, but they're younger, hotter, and wilder in the sack than my wife," he says.

It is a narrative that is impossible to argue with: too much porn leads to trouble, as Perry and Davy will tell you.  And they did tell you, so you're on notice.

And so we are back to first principles: what does the author want to be true?


III.


I won't argue with the hypothesis that gently annoying your penis for two hours, boringly, while you surf the tubes is going to lead to some desensitization.   You have to approach porn like a bank heist: get in, get out, you got 15 minutes and someone tripped the silent alarm.  Leave nothing behind.

That's not this guy's problem.

I realize regular readers are anticipating my punch line, but that doesn't make it less true.  The reason he's semi-impotent has nothing to do with how he views porn, it has to do with how he views himself, i.e. completely oblivious to reality.   Observe that this guy wrote an article, under his own name, about how he can't get an erection with women because he watches too much pornography.  Take a minute.   He thinks this is such a universal problem that far from feeling any shame, he should be applauded for exposing the dark secret of American men.

Run through it: does he want it to be true that he's impotent?   No.  He wants to be true that the reason he has sexual problems is the porn, in the same way that I have no doubt he believes the reason he can't find a job is Sarah Palin.

It is for this reason that I can make the following prediction with 100% certainty: if he never looks at porn again, if he never masturbates again, ever-- he will still have chronic sexual dysfunction.  Pornography is a scapegoat.


IV.

This isn't a judgment on Rothbart, it is an indictment of all of you who want it to be true that something is destroying your lives but that something cannot possibly be yourself.

Here's the first paragraph of the article, in full:

I met the woman at a Broadway show, but the night's best piece of acting, I'd say, came from me, back at her East Village apartment, after we'd been having sex for about 25 minutes, with Neil Young wailing the song "Comes a Time" from the laptop on her bedside table. The dried-out condom had a full-bodied choke hold on me, but I'd already stopped twice to put on a fresh one, and I knew, as I kept earnestly pumping away, that one more condom wouldn't make the necessary difference. Had I just given up, things might have played out the way they often did, with shades of confused disappointment and inadequacy on the part of the woman and mumbled apologies and awkward shame from me. But that night, ingenuity struck--unable to actually get off, I found myself flying a fresh route: I faked it.
I don't need anything other than that paragraph to tell me that his problem isn't porn.   Do you know anything, anything about the woman?  Forget her life choices; what color hair does she have?   Hell, even characterize her as just a sex-object, a bimbo, tell me she's got big boobs,  degrade her, anything, but put her in the movie!  How would you cast her?  "Well, it's not really important who plays her."  Got it. 

But I know too much about him, none of it important, all of it branding: Broadway show, East Village, Neil Young, two condoms in 25 minutes.  You could counter that perhaps the story is just made up to illustrate his point, but that only reinforces my point: this is what he imagines to be important to a story about sex.

The article proceeds to offer examples in support of the premise that too much porn leads to an inability to connect with a real woman:

Then there's Stefan, a 43-year-old composer, who has no problem getting aroused when he has sex with his wife. "In order to come, though, I've got to resort to playing scenes in my head that I've seen while viewing porn. Something is lost there. I'm no longer with my wife; I'm inside my own head."
Just like with Perry, above, you're supposed to interpret that as he has to fantasize that he's with a hot chick, but that's not what he's doing.  He's masturbating, but instead of his hand he just happens to be using a climaxing vagina attached to a woman some other guy would be happy to penetrate, which is weird because that's what he's imagining anyway.


V.

Ron says that for the past couple of years, he's had weekly "dates" with his favorite porn stars, which he looks forward to all day and even showers and shaves for, as though preparing for a live-action rendezvous. "Mondays are for Gia Jordan," he says. "Tuesdays for Sasha Grey." Wednesdays he has a reprieve--a Portuguese night class. "I always look forward to Thursdays the most--Kasey Kox," he says. "Then, on the weekends, I hang out with my girlfriend."

So, Ron is insane.  I don't think there's any point in debating that.  Any women who finds his obsessiveness charming and are interested in auditioning for the Wednesday slot should check the casting notice:


gia-sasha-kacey.jpg
Are you right for the part? 

But the point it makes is clear: Ron has an ideal woman image in his head, and only porn can give it to him.   Real women don't measure up.  We can debate the impact on women, that it forces women into gender specific stereotypes and presents women with impossible expectations of their sexuality and availability.  Or something.

But feminists and Ron are reading this the wrong way.  Porn is not causing him to be disconnected from women, he is already disconnected from them, and the only person that will have him is online.    He's not retreating into porn because real women don't measure up, he's retreating into it because he doesn't measure up.  He's not porn material.   He doesn't expect or want that women will naturally act like porn stars in bed, he expects that he will be able to turn them into porn stars in bed, with his massive dong packing her into a creaming pliancy.  It is his failure to be able to do this that drives him back to porn.

Narcissism is about the need to self-identify and to broadcast that identity to others.  Online porn doesn't help you do this because it robs you of your pants, but you can run it as defense: online porn prevents other people from finding out you aren't as good as you think you are.  Everyone imagines they are good in bed, but when you hit 30, 40, 50, and you slow down, now you're no longer as good as even you once were.  And so you will give up sex, actual sex, something you would have previously stabbed a harp seal to get, just so you and she don't have to realize just how mediocre you are.  "No, you're wrong, I simply don't have the energy."  But you can stay up till 2am spinning the Wheel of Anal?

Add to that his own self-image.  When you masturbate to porn, as with all fetishes, you are able to focus on a single piece of something as a proxy for all sexuality.  It is super easy to look down at, say, your own penis manipulated to its max and see it as gigantic, see it as a proxy for the stud that you imagine you could be given the right script, lighting and production.  But the moment the director yells, "action!" the self-consciousness kicks in. You see your flabby gut through her eyes and imagine she can't possibly be aroused by it.  You don't feel sexy, so you are not interested in sex.   Do I need to point out that this is what women used to say about themselves?  Dude, you're acting like a girl.

You don't need to drive more than three paragraphs down to find evidence of this.  Here's what one tool said about being a tool:

"I've always thought it's really hot when women in porn movies say dirty stuff," he says. "Usually, they're just literally narrating the shit that's happening, giving the play-by-play: 'You're fucking me! Your dick's in my ass! I'm sucking your cock right now!' For whatever reason, that's what does it for me. But recently a woman I was with started saying all that stuff, and it just kind of spooked me. She seemed slightly nuts."

And

Women, noticing a decline in their partners' libidos, try to reenact the kinds of scenes that men watch on their computer screens. Men, as a result, get really freaked out. They don't want their real women and their fantasy women to inhabit the same body.

They're not freaked out, he has assessed them incorrectly.  Remember Sartre's "look?"  This is an anti-look.  This is where, as she's looking over her shoulder at you and screaming out the expletives she's learned men like, you catch a glimpse of her eyes and see behind them, into her soul, and you see that she's pretending, this is just an act, this is fake, this sex is even less real than the stuff on the internet.


VI.

Let me be clear: it's not masturbation that we're talking about, neither is it a critique of porn in general, but specifically online porn video clips-- the way Davy and Ron and pretty much the rest of America views it.  What makes it so bad, and how can we stop it?

This is the approach that fails us with social issues, "what can be done about it?"  Nothing, you can't do anything about the porn, the porn is a fact of reality.  You may as well uselessly ask what can be done about giraffes or misplaced modifiers.  Porn is here, ubiquitous, and until the government finds a way to kill you over the internet there's nothing stopping you from blowing out your retinas.  We can Thomas Aquinas this issue for another decade, and maybe it is a moral issue I have no idea, but I do know that it won't change reality.   You can only change yourself, and if you can't change yourself you had no realistic possibility of changing the world anyway.  Stop rationalizing.

We're looking at the porn "problem" the wrong way.  Because there are vaginas in it, we think it has something to do with sex or libido or even power, but strip porn down to its functionality and you'll see it's something else.  Do a rundown: it's not illegal.  For the most part, it isn't even shameful, you say Brazzers and every guy in American will be happy to tell you about it.  "How did you know that?"  "Wikileaks."  It's easy to access.  It's not terribly damaging.  It sucks up a lot of time that you always regret afterwards, Davy and Ron may light candles and dim the lights in preparation for their "date" with but three seconds into the ejaculation they're already planning how to kill themselves.  That's right, mo, that's two hours you could have spent learning to Ricky Jay a deck of cards or dictionary attack your ex-GF's facebook account.  "Hey, what'd you do last night?"  "Hung out."  "Me too.  I'm exhausted."

And: no one climaxes unexpectedly from watching online porn.  You decide you're done.  The first 10 minutes are thrilling but after that you're not holding back from orgasming; in fact, you're trying to remind your penis to stay hard until you find whatever it is you think you're looking for, because you think you're going to want to suddenly come when you find it, whatever it is will be so awesome you won't be able to hold back-- but it's never so spontaneous.  You have to decide the time has run out.  This is why online porn is so problematic: there's no natural end in sight.

And for most, the biggest problem is the drive: you don't do it because you're horny, you do it because you're bored.  With porn that available, you never get to really horny anyway in the same way Americans never get to really hungry.

You're training your penis to resist physical stimulation and key off your mind, which sounds good in theory but you see the results with poor Davy-- you're training yourself to have sex in your head.  So it's not that real women aren't porn-like; even porn, after twenty minutes, isn't porn-like anymore.  What you need to finish is some time afterwards to create a masturbation scenario, and with some real woman squirming underneath you playing her own movie, "give it to me, Julian!" it's hard to concentrate.

In other words, online porn isn't a drug, it isn't an addiction, it isn't a sign of deviancy or a trigger for disease: porn is junk food.  It is a bag of potato chips you eat when you aren't even hungry, and once you start and the initial "mmmm!" passes you're all in, may as well finish the bag, you've ruined your diet/night already, start over clean tomorrow.

After a while potato chips just figure into your routine, there's a passing thought that perhaps you shouldn't but since there aren't any obvious and immediate consequences...  And now it's part of who you are.

But no one would ever say that "other foods don't measure up", no one says that potato chips taste better than steak not because they don't but because no sane person makes those kinds of comparisons.  If you did, if you played it all out in your head and now deliberately avoid eating a steak in order to get to potato chips-- then you have a problem that is deeper than steak or potato chips.

Junk food is stripped of the essentials of real food, leaving just the vulgar, the simple, the obvious of taste: sugar, salt, fat, repeat.  It is the pornographization of food.   The mistake people make is that they think it is delicious, but it's really just easy, comforting, reliable, satisfying.  And that's where we are now: online porn is the pornographization of porn. 



VII.

When you characterize porn as an addiction it tells you that it is hard to break free, that it is a struggle, that relapse is inevitable-- all things that have nothing to do with porn.  But when you characterize online porn as junk food, the solution is obvious: don't eat it.

Easier said than done, I know, but the thing I find helps most people is to understand that you can't refrain from doing something you like.  You can, however, change the person you are into the kind of person who doesn't even like that stuff.  Sugar Smacks still taste the same as they did under Carter, but I don't know anybody who still eats them.  Do the same for soda.

In medical school a lot of the guys (who went into ortho) went to the gym and would discuss with euphoria how much canned tuna they ate.  "There's 15g of protein and zero fat!" they'd whisper to each other, and they'd sooner eat salamander eyes than lick a Dorito. That was the kind of guys they were. 

This may not be a reassuring solution to some, but I can promise you that it is the only solution: you have to decide you're not the kind of person who wastes time on that.  Condemning it, banning it, hiding from it-- all will lead to failure.  Lust isn't the trigger,  boredom is, idle hands are something or other, so the sooner you get a default activity, the better.  When your wife walks in on you in the midst of an overhand tug and she moans, "you are pathetic!" she's really a vowel off, apathetic is more accurate and considerably more amenable to improvement.


VIII.

Davy believes porn messed up his relationships with women.  I don't expect him to  understand that he gravitates to porn because of who he is.

Like any through researcher, I decided to investigate a theory. I had heard about something called the National Day of Unplugging, sponsored by the New York-based Jewish group Reboot, which encourages people to take a one-day vacation from their tech. But I chose to unplug in my own way: by refusing to visit the usual series of tawdry websites I frequent before bedtime.
If you can get past the branding, you can see that Copernicus's porn usage isn't an addiction but a routine.  Routines are part of your identity, like it or not, with the unfortunate consequence that you'll reflexively defend it even if it is foolish.  Here is the very next sentence:

Now, I'm certainly not trying to indict porn, or to conclude that it has no place in men's lives, whether they are alone or in company. And I'll concede that some couples still find it to be something of a turn-on. But realigning one's relationship to it might just improve one's actual relationships--especially if you're often finding yourself in the bedroom, staring into the eyes of a very confused partner.
"Just don't do it" is going to be hard for him, the porn is part of who he is, but-- and this is the part you should focus on-- if he decides to be a different person he can stop that routine, and  if he stops that routine he will become a different person.  But he doesn't want to change, he just wants things to change.

I went without porn for a day. Then I tried it for two. Then three. On the fourth day, I had the fortune of having sex with a woman. And nothing was faked, although I can only speak for myself.

The next 40 years of this guy's life are going to be drudgery, and for anyone else he drags with him.  So if that's you, for the sake of everyone around you, stop eating junk food.


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You might also like:

The Near Death Of A Salesman

Don't Settle For The Man You Want

How To Lose Weight


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http://twitter.com/thelastpsych














Comments

We make our own porn. It's... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 12:21 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

We make our own porn. It's so sweet and sincere that the jerk-off potential takes a backseat to how lovey-dovey we are. However, orgasms happen fine on screen and in front of the screen. (No puns intended.)

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -3 (29 votes cast)
"You can only change yourse... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 1:05 PM | Posted by Another Perry: | Reply

"You can only change yourself, and if you can't change yourself you had no realistic possibility of changing the world anyway. Stop rationalizing."

This is snazzy.

I came to your site to thank you for what you do and to suggest a theme or title for a post: "Living With Narcsisscism: A snapback to reality." When I happened on the above, I wondered if you just had. But Big N is always there, how to see the forest from the trees?

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -2 (18 votes cast)
Thank you. ... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 1:05 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Thank you.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 9 (13 votes cast)
"You can only change yourse... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 1:07 PM | Posted by Another Perry: | Reply

"You can only change yourself, and if you can't change yourself you had no realistic possibility of changing the world anyway. Stop rationalizing."

This is snazzy.

I came to your site to thank you for what you do and to suggest a theme or title for a post: "Living With Narcissism: A snapback to reality." When I happened on the above, I wondered if you just had. But Big N is always there, how to see the forest from the trees?

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -21 (29 votes cast)
"You can only change yourse... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 1:07 PM | Posted by Another Perry: | Reply

"You can only change yourself, and if you can't change yourself you had no realistic possibility of changing the world anyway. Stop rationalizing."

This is snazzy.

I came to your site to thank you for what you do and to suggest a theme or title for a post: "Living With Narcissism: A snapback to reality." When I happened on the above, I wondered if you just had. But Big N is always there, how to see the forest through the trees?

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -29 (31 votes cast)
Thank you for this.... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 1:19 PM | Posted by Butterfly McDoom: | Reply

Thank you for this.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 7 (7 votes cast)
Thanks. Awesome post. This ... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 1:20 PM | Posted by Anon: | Reply

Thanks. Awesome post. This will change my relationship w junk food.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 27 (27 votes cast)
Absolutely perfect. Why get... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 1:23 PM | Posted by JM: | Reply

Absolutely perfect. Why get to know someone - have an actual relationship with them - when all you want is to get off? Why put up with someone's foibles, especially when their biggest flaw is that they reveal your own? Instead you can end-run the revelation that you're not as awesome as you think you are by inundating yourself with...videos that confirm you're not as awesome as you think you are. But if you just *don't think* about that part, you'll be fine. You'll just also be someone no actual person wants to be around.

(Bonus: much of the same is going on with 'video game addiction'.)

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 39 (45 votes cast)
<a href="http://thirdtierre... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 1:23 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/

After law school, and $124,810 in student loans, he's just not that into anyone.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -12 (36 votes cast)
Porn serves an under apprec... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 1:27 PM | Posted by sdenheyer: | Reply

Porn serves an under appreciated social function: it makes monogamy easier for men.

However, moderation is required.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 2 (70 votes cast)
WIth the DSM information ... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 1:31 PM | Posted by Harry Horton: | Reply

WIth the DSM information on all the mental disorders, and characterizing such disorders----there is one dimension to mental disturbances such as the ususal age onset for maladies such as schizophrenia. With that in mind is there either a general consensus or a standard psychiatric principle for representing or determining the age of adolescent boys when they start to masturbate. That is, what is the age generally, 13, 14, later... ect. I read in the New York times recently that Hugh Hefner began masturbating at 18, which seems rather late.

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The observations of this po... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 1:34 PM | Posted by JJ: | Reply

The observations of this post say almost nothing compared to the reader responses at MYMag. There are 96 of them now. I highly recommend that everyone read them. They provide much more insight than this LP post.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: -20 (34 votes cast)
"I realize regular readers ... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 2:00 PM | Posted by BHE: | Reply

"I realize regular readers are anticipating my punch line..."

Take that to mean that you've helped change the way that a not-insignificant number of people view the world.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 25 (25 votes cast)
XXX XXXXXXX XX XXX.... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 2:48 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

XXX XXXXXXX XX XXX.

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Anything above 0 is a non-i... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 3:02 PM | Posted, in reply to BHE's comment, by Cosmicomics: | Reply

Anything above 0 is a non-insignificant number.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 3 (5 votes cast)
I think I know too much abo... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 3:47 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I think I know too much about Alone's sex life now...

Great article...keep them coming!

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i masturbated to this post ... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 3:52 PM | Posted by joe: | Reply

i masturbated to this post wats wrong with me LP

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 49 (59 votes cast)
I don't know. While I see ... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 5:46 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I don't know. While I see plenty of merit in the views expressed in this post, my own observation is that there is a real problem that stems from being lazy about the visualization. Masturbating to images in your head (especially, as you said, about real people) does not lend itself to this problem like watching porn does. Porn makes for lazy imagination. The visuals do the work for you, and then you start relying on that subconsciously to stimulate you rather than stimulating your imagination often enough that it kicks in to stimulate you when real intimate situations occur. In short, I've found that if you make it so you put no effort into erotica--if you don't participate in it rather than simply witnessing it--well you get out exactly what you put in. Imagination atrophies, and with it goes sensitivity and arousal.

The other points are valid too (take responsibility, don't do it so much, it's more about boredom than arousal, etc), but I've found that it's just not that simple, and it's not all about low self-esteem or not measuring up (sometimes it's not even about that at all).

It's a matter of laziness (i.e. taking the easiest path, regardless of quality or meaning), and laziness is at the root of all addiction. Whether or not THIS issue is about addiction, it most definitely is about laziness.

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Thank you, Doc. I'm conside... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 5:51 PM | Posted by Whatever: | Reply

Thank you, Doc. I'm considering this post a birthday present.

And JJ - you are wrong. That's why we read the doc. One of his articles makes more sense than 96 responses all together.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 7 (7 votes cast)
yeah I googled all the name... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 7:18 PM | Posted by dave: | Reply

yeah I googled all the named stars ... what of it ? ...
*fap fap*

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But it makes for great come... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 8:50 PM | Posted by DCF: | Reply

But it makes for great comedy if you don't change... I'm willing to suffer for my craft

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 5 (7 votes cast)
Incredible post.... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2011 11:30 PM | Posted by Jukebox: | Reply

Incredible post.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 1 (1 votes cast)
First off, thanks for this ... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2011 2:05 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Social Capital: | Reply

First off, thanks for this excellent article, LP. I agree with the anonymous poster at 15 Feb 5:46, but view his perspective as parallel to yours, not as a retort. I've made the same observations about mental images and imaginary scenarios, and I agree with his(?) point about the connection between that skill and interpersonal performance. Thanks again, LP, for all you do. Keep it up (hi-YO!).

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 1 (1 votes cast)
Also, I was nodding my head... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2011 2:30 AM | Posted by Social Capital: | Reply

Also, I was nodding my head vigorously at your point about the futility of "quitting" a much-enjoyed compulsion. For years I quit smoking every few months or so, and felt hopeless. It wasn't until I had a sojourn into Buddhism (branding!) that I decided to take a passive instead of active approach: I realized that quitting is what smokers try to do, while simply not smoking is something (not) done by by billions of weak-willed people every day. I decided that smoking wasn't my kind of thing anymore... I wasn't that kind of guy. Once I accepted that as a fact, it became one. Thanks again.

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Thank you, you are so right... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2011 2:54 AM | Posted by Anonimous: | Reply

Thank you, you are so right. I got to get back and read it several times more.

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 2 (2 votes cast)
[T]he thing I find helps... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2011 3:29 AM | Posted by Anon2312: | Reply

[T]he thing I find helps most people is to understand that you can't refrain from doing something you like. You can, however, change the person you are into the kind of person who doesn't even like that stuff.

!!!

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 9 (9 votes cast)
Damn that Sarah Palin!... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2011 10:26 AM | Posted by Jack Coupal: | Reply

Damn that Sarah Palin!

She's ruining my life in so many ways!

Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 5 (5 votes cast)
but LP you have only addres... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2011 10:37 AM | Posted by leanne: | Reply

but LP you have only addressed one side of this issue. Though I do agree with the points you make, I have to say it's not so simple. A entire generation of people have grown up with online porn (which is not the same as the traditional porn flicks) as their sex education teacher. As a woman I have experienced every one of the scenarios expressed by the women interviewed for this article. I have to ask how old are you LP?
It seems men in their 20s have learned how to "preform" from watching online porn and it has also shaped their views of women and what women want. Maybe that is why they are having self esteem issues. Foreplay is not smacking your penis off someones face - "I want to f%^& you hard up the a#$" is not sweet talk. and NO! my roommate (or yours either) has never! and won't ever! be joining in!
its gross - gross gross gross! and how uninteresting and confusing it must be to find out real girls do not get pleasure from the things online girls moan and beg for.


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Leanne is correct. I can't ... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2011 1:29 PM | Posted by A girl: | Reply

Leanne is correct. I can't say how many times I have had to try to convince a guy that I don't like anal sex.

("Yes you do.
No, really I don't.
Women love anal sex.
Well I don't.
Maybe you need lube.
I don't want to have anal sex.
You have to work up to it.
Seriously, I've tried it many times with many different people, I'm not having anal sex with you.)

I have talked to women in my life who are open about their sex lives and about four out of five women I know strongly don't like anal sex. (Yes i literally counted because I'm curious about this phenomenon--- do ANY women REALLY like this? It's so ouchy? What the fuck?)

Of those who say they like it a few seemed to say they thought it was ok, or they would do it for he right person, and a few say they really dig it.

(One friend was on about doing it with a dildo up your other hole for like 3 hours--- lol, OK she really liked it!)

I would imagine that a large portion of pornstars are good at acting. Um... see job description.

Meaning they are playing out scenes that someone else decided would sell well. I can't imagine ten guys jerking off on my face and SMILING and saying, "Oh this is so hot keep it cuming"

The idea of being expected to be excited about being treated like this makes me really sad. No I'm not going to pretend to like stuff like that because girls who are being paid are willing to pretend they do, or some of those girls are really into that stuff.

Whatever.

I meet so many guys that pressume after one date I'm supposed to come over and hop on their dick and giggle and bounce up down. What the fuck dude? Do other women really do this? Is this something you imagine would be cool, or do you actually find women who go on one date with you and want to hop in your shower and bend over and take while saying "Oh yes I love it from behind!"

"An entire generation of people have grown up with online porn (which is not the same as the traditional porn flicks) as their sex education teacher." I really think you struck on something that we should be having dialogue about and doing research on. How is this affecting our relationships, between both men and women (and men and men and women and women etc)?

All that being said, this is a mighty fantabulous post on what it specifically addresses.

I don't mean to stroke your ......ego Mr. TheLast, but magnificent.
"What's the message here? That porn leads to meth?"

Bwahaha... totally nearly spit out my coffee.

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uhh, Leanne, you're wrong.<... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2011 2:06 PM | Posted, in reply to leanne's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

uhh, Leanne, you're wrong.

Many women DO like that stuff.

Its just you that doesn't.

Don't try to make every woman fit into your narcissistic pigeonhole.

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This is a brilliant discuss... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2011 2:24 PM | Posted by David: | Reply

This is a brilliant discussion.

In general I agree with your points. However, some converse points could be made also: desire & drive, particularly male sexual desire, has a tendency to seek and be rewarded by variety. We could make evolutionary arguments to explain the development of these preferences over time, etc. In this way variety, and nurturing a taste for variety, can be akin to connoiseurship, or to gourmet, rather than to junk food consumption. Porn certainly caters to this attraction to variety, both in process ("the hunt for something different") and in content.

A problem could arise if this behaviour becomes more and more obsessive, or, dare I say it, "addictive," such that one is so conditioned to expect or require variety that one loses the skill or mindset to enjoy existing relationships or sexual encounters. Or, if the behaviour occupies so much time that other life roles or health starts to decline. In this sense, I believe the addiction model is very apt.

If any activity could be framed as a pathway towards deeper estheticism or connoiseurship, rather than as idle, lazy, habitual "junk food consumption," than this activity could possibly be a simple life pleasure or hobby, rather than a destructive force. Porn could potentially be this--an enhancement to life's eroticism rather than a conduit for idle detachment.

I do not think it need be considered abnormal to fantasize about other things in the midst of a sexual event. Intimacy and physical tenderness can come in many different ways, and to expect a sense of sublime connectedness and intense focus with one's partner at all times as a sort of holy grail of sexual health is perhaps an unrealistic demand for a person or society to impose as a norm. While I do believe that couples should work towards being more present and intimately connected with each other, during sex, and during all other times, I do not believe that a "disconnected" fantasy life need be any more automatically abnormal than thinking of food from a fine restaurant while eating a more "ordinary" meal at home, or of visualizing a tropical beach scene during one's daily bus trip to work or school. If such fantasy is so frequent that one can NEVER appreciate the present moment exactly as it is, then I think there is obviously a problem which needs work.

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"Its just you that doesn't.... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2011 3:25 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"Its just you that doesn't."

You just made the same mistake she did. It isn't -just- her that doesn't.

"real girls do not get pleasure from the things online girls moan and beg for."

This is clearly not true. There are a lot of women out there in the world and a lot of kinkiness and sexual fantasies.

The problem that I have is not that there is a desire for kinky sexual activities but that guys assume they can just grab your head and shove it on their weiners and that you're going to like it.

Some women are into that kind of thing, but I think that should be something you either talk with your partner with about first "So do you like kind of rough spontaneous play? Cuz I can bust out some crazy shit here"

Or be a DAMN good mind reader.

I don't think ANY of the behaviors we're talking about in men are "because of" porn. I think TLP is on the money that these are deeper rooted than porn. However they may be influenced by porn a good deal.

The question "What if he likes porn more than me" could have been replaced by "what if he likes being at the strip club more than me" 20 years ago. Or what if he likes being at the saloon with busty hookers more than me 200 years ago. Porn makes new naked women available in the privacy of your home--- no one has to know!

Maybe men prefer meaningless sex/ series of noncommittal relationships more than monogamy. that's not because of porn. But if a guy is in a reltionship he doesn't want to be in and he's sitting around watching porn, that might be "the thing" that signals the woman to think--- huh--- maybe he doesn't really want to be in this relationship.

I'll just say, as a woman, if a guy is more into porn than banging me than I very kindly and nicely would like to be free to go find someone who'se more interesting in banging.

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I agree that guys often mod... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2011 3:40 PM | Posted, in reply to leanne's comment, by Iris: | Reply

I agree that guys often model what they see in porn movies, but couldn't you just tell them you're not into it? So far, all but the most stubborn have taken the hint. Sometimes you don't even need words.

The guys I've been with that "confess" to watching internet porn have had a problem with premature ejaculation (one even thought that was why I broke up with him). So... should they have watched more porn? Or less?

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The author, Davy Rothbart, ... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2011 5:30 PM | Posted by H: | Reply

The author, Davy Rothbart, is also responsible for this: http://www.easierwithpractice.com/, an NC17 rated, autobiographical movie about a phone-sex only relationship with a girl he's never met.

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David, although I'm sure th... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2011 8:01 PM | Posted, in reply to David's comment, by whowashere: | Reply

David, although I'm sure there are some "connoisseurs" for whom variety is the spice of arousal, I think its important to remember, from both an aesthetic and thematic point of view, just how repetitive and similar all porn is.

Although I had a roommate in college who would find weird, often terrible or disturbing pornography clips on the internet, who was a gourmet of weird porn, was much more of a gourmand when it came to his "personal watching" habits. He was into one thing, or maybe a couple (ha!).

And even if you do look for "variety", the actual categories of internet porn are entirely based on the race, age, (or, sometimes number) of women performing in them. Though there is a tremendous variety, in my experience (both personal and with male friends unironically discussing it) there is a narrower range of what porn actually provides "use value".

The question: Do women like it? Do women not like it? is beside the point. Surely some do, some don't. Though I think TLP has nailed (mind the pun) a major part of the problem, I think that the role of pornography in turning sex into a visual act (and thus, an alienating one) is important as well.

By moving sexual pleasure from the erogenous and emotional register, and into the visual, you make it much easier to bleed sex (eww!) of its political, freedom producing, or indivuating power, by lessening its actual pleasure and deepening its anxiety (about performance, appearance of the self or the partner, etc)

It also means you're a lot more willing to spend money on lookin' good, which we know keeps this economy moving, even if we are all simultaneously fattening.

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Aha! Ladies and gents, we h... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2011 9:43 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Aha! Ladies and gents, we have an anal fan!

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I love your stuff, but I th... (Below threshold)

February 16, 2011 10:18 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I love your stuff, but I think you missed the boat on this one.

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Recommended your blog to a ... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2011 1:58 AM | Posted by Francis: | Reply

Recommended your blog to a certain Mr. Amaechi. Not so sure what kind of impression he'll get of the blog, depending on the first post. Then again, he's really into metacognition about assumptions and things, so it might be okay. I kinda liked this post.

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Hey Leann. You think sex wi... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2011 7:28 AM | Posted by Bob: | Reply

Hey Leann. You think sex with your roommate is disgusting? I bet you wouldn't mind reading an overly emotional romance novel. (which I happen to find disgusting when I read it). If porn is a bad influence on what men should be looking for in a woman, then romance novels should be equally to blame for what women think men should be like.

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Hello,I'm editor o... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2011 9:58 AM | Posted by Gustavo Gitti: | Reply

Hello,

I'm editor of a digital lifestyle magazine for men (www.papodehomem.com.br).

I really enjoyed your post and I want to translate it and publish it (with credits and link, of course). We have more than 30.000 readers every day.

We need your authorization to do so. Is that OK for you?

Feel free to email me at gitti@papodehomem.com.br

Thanks,

Gustavo Gitti
www.papodehomem.com.br

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An earlier post I submitt... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2011 12:01 PM | Posted by Harry Horton: | Reply

An earlier post I submitted on February 15 2011 on the topic of Hugh Hefner, and what age do adolescent boys start to masturbate. COntinuing along those lines, there are two interesting conditions that develop with boys at around the age of 12 to 13. (1) The churches try to capitalize on their inimate spiritual connection with the divine regions of their mind and psyche, when young adolescent boys reach 12 or 13. Because they have at that age a psychological connection with God and their spirituality. Secondly (2) with sexual maturation they begin to fantasize and masturbate.
There is a German novel by Hermann Hesse called Demian that centers on the spiritual awakening of its protagonist Emil Sinclair in his early to mid adolescence, and the book is an exploration into the inner workings of the psyche and mind of asolescent Emil Sinclair on a spiritual basis. One ineresting point Hesse made about Emil Sinclair' spiritual nature and processing at this time in the novel,was that Sinclair made note that his friend Demian knew about girls--hence a sexual tone and facet to the spiritual awakenings of Emil Sinclair in relationship with his spiritual guide at the time Demian, was hence related by Hesse in the book. So in this reference about girls the sexual and spiritual connection and terrain is interwoven by Hesse in regards to his two characters Demian and Emil Sinclair.
What is interesting about Hugh Hefner whose family wanted him to become a missionary and introduced to him that he was an ancestor to William Bradford, the Puritan leader from West Yorkshire in the 1600's---is the fact that Hefner's most sexually fertile time say from 12 to 18 years was totally barren and absent of any sexual activity--i.e. he never masturbated during that time.While other boys basically were experiencing the sexual fantasy delights along with their spiritual connection to the divine, that ran concordant to their sexual maturation during 12-18. This early adolescent period was totally absent in any sexual activity with Hugh Hefner. I would love to know why that is with Hefner armchair psychologist By the way I find these facts kind of interesting, I being also like Hefner, a genetic relation to William Bradford; that is, off William Bradford's mother's side---the Hansons of West Yotrkshire.

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Correction on previous "H... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2011 12:07 PM | Posted by Harry Horton: | Reply

Correction on previous "Harry Horton February 17, post's" sentence--meant to say: "I would love to know way that is with Hefner as my part here of playing armchair psychologist of sorts. I being like Hefner..." These last sentences should read as such.

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Can't say were it was, mayb... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2011 12:53 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by tusk: | Reply

Can't say were it was, maybe Kinsey, and how reliable these figures are, but I remember a statistic in a broader study that listed the ratio of like/don't like anal sex (with of the man as penetrator) for heterosexuals as:

Women: 1:3
Males: 9:1

There's also that lame old joke: Every women tries anal sex at least twice; the second time to prove if actually hurt that much.

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Well, those typos are embar... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2011 12:58 PM | Posted, in reply to tusk's comment, by tusk: | Reply

Well, those typos are embarrassing. Of course it ought to be "where it was" and "Every woman"…

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Some further ideas on sex... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2011 1:54 PM | Posted by Harry Horton: | Reply

Some further ideas on sexual fantasy and Hugh Hefner. Its interesting that today when one considers sexual fantasy, hardly anyone realizes the word fantasy actually connotes the deep essence of the spiritual regions of the human psyche and universe around us. If one embarked on sexual fantasy even in masturbation, one is participating essentially more with the region of fantasy, or the region of the spiritual and divine areas of the mind and psyche. All one has to do is look up on the internet: 'Wikipedia fantasy', and go through the wikipedia article and the spiritual texture and essence of "fantasy" is clearly illustrated in the article. And that is the wikipedia definition of fantasy contains references to all sorts of historical myths, fairies and creatures and the like as the essence of fantasy. Also the word 'fantasy defintion', which can be googled, one definition means imagainative power and creative power of the imagination. The use of the words creative and imagination are terms used for nothing short of God. In religion The Creator is known as God and imagination in such spiritual texts as Eckankar's the Far Country full text (found on internet with that title) illustrate how the imagination is the staightforward essence of God. I always find it interesting that in current thinking today that when one speaks of sexual fantasy, the main word in the term that might as well comprise 95% of the essence of the term is ----fantasy. And hence with that God, spiritual flight, and entry into the spiriutal worlds that fantasy heralds. Its as if the sexual part is only a modus operandi of secondary sorts for accomplishing the real objective of participating with fantasy which is synonomous to participating in the regions of the spritual essence and divine.

Its sort of interesting, that three people: Hugh Hefner, Rollo May, and John Donne all basically could have been saying the say thing when it came to sex and fantasy. In Rollo May's book Love and Will, May poured acid all over Hugh Hefner's philosophy of Playboy and the Playboy bunny. Actually going as far to cite that the playboy bunny was the quintessinal symbol of a dying out culture as western civilization is today. A culture in its death throes, May noted with the playboy bunny. Vacuous eyes, uninviting,scizoid,these were the characteristics May used for characterizing the Playboy bunny. May further stated as such, where any real sexual interest or desire even starts to wane rather substantially in consideration of her--such were terms that May used to described the artificially bloated breast bearing playboy bunny
of Hugh Hefner's creation. But even more interesting on the theme of western civilization's decline, May in Love and Will referred back to John Donne's poetical statement of "this world is spent". As the first consciousness of western civilization's decline was being felt in the ELizabethan times (ironically a time where Hugh Hefner's ancestor William Bradford--a contemporary of Donne--was living.) So these two men, May and Donne were noting the decline of western civilization and thirdly and ironically according to the news media accounts Hugh Hefner the third individual also concurred with the sentiments of both Donne and May in regards to western civilization's decline. Hefner recalled a memory as a young man: while looking despondently at a river in Chicago and stating: "is that all there is" he said and thought about life, in a gloomy sort of view of life for him and his future, as related by him in the cable TV show. This frame of mind seemed to be a central 'psyche motivator' for starting playboy and he himself becoming the porn king he later became. As T.S. Eliot stated about fantasy life in the 20th century today: "The nymphs have departed". That is nymphs have departed from fantasy life of humans today, perhaps.
Even though the sex still remains. Maybe the nymphs aren't into anymore also. That is as an additional condition to this article's title from the last psychiatrist.

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Hi..I'm a Pornaholic...I ca... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2011 2:02 PM | Posted by Catahoula Leopard: | Reply

Hi..I'm a Pornaholic...I can't live without Pornahol.

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Doc - this may have started... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2011 2:03 PM | Posted by Whatever: | Reply

Doc - this may have started a trend:

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-ca-louts-20110213,0,2024755.story

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how the hell is porn like j... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2011 2:55 PM | Posted by moron: | Reply

how the hell is porn like junk food?

it hasn't been proven to cause any illness.

masturbation has even been shown to reduce prostate cancer and reduce infertility, or abstinence has been shown to damage fertility. even sperm donation recommendations are abandoning the notion of abstinence before donating or at least reducing the time of abstinence. there's even a hypothesis that ejaculation is a form of grooming and/or cleaning, if it is, would that not make porn the equivalent of soap or a toothbrush?

or are you talking about the invisible world of the 'psych'?

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Porn like junk food? No I ... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2011 3:37 PM | Posted by Catahoula Leopard: | Reply

Porn like junk food? No I get more out of porn not just empty calories

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"I have talked to women in ... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2011 4:39 PM | Posted, in reply to A girl's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

"I have talked to women in my life who are open about their sex lives and about four out of five women I know strongly don't like anal sex. (Yes i literally counted because I'm curious about this phenomenon--- do ANY women REALLY like this? It's so ouchy? What the fuck?)"

the ANSWER?: YES!. Many women BEG for anal sex. I do not like it myself (it smells bad, duh!) but I have been with women who get off better that way better than any other.

"I meet so many guys that pressume after one date I'm supposed to come over and hop on their dick and giggle and bounce up down. What the fuck dude? Do other women really do this?"

the ANSWER?: Yes, many women do and they are absolutely the best. I would be able to tell that you are a woman who would not with one glance. The guys that tried it with you were oblivious, but so were you for going with them.

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"I have talked to women in ... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2011 4:39 PM | Posted, in reply to A girl's comment, by JJ: | Reply

"I have talked to women in my life who are open about their sex lives and about four out of five women I know strongly don't like anal sex. (Yes i literally counted because I'm curious about this phenomenon--- do ANY women REALLY like this? It's so ouchy? What the fuck?)"

the ANSWER?: YES!. Many women BEG for anal sex. I do not like it myself (it smells bad, duh!) but I have been with women who get off better that way better than any other.

"I meet so many guys that pressume after one date I'm supposed to come over and hop on their dick and giggle and bounce up down. What the fuck dude? Do other women really do this?"

the ANSWER?: Yes, many women do and they are absolutely the best. I would be able to tell that you are a woman who would not with one glance. The guys that tried it with you were oblivious, but so were you for going with them.

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From leanne: "It seems men ... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2011 8:31 PM | Posted by Social Capital: | Reply

From leanne: "It seems men in their 20s have learned how to "preform" from watching online porn and it has also shaped their views of women and what women want. Maybe that is why they are having self esteem issues."

First, thank leanne for her thoughtful comment. I would argue that the real issue underlying what she is complaining about here is emotional disconnection. When men expect anal sex or giggley bouncing while their partner does not, the root problem of isn't that they learned this behavior or that behavior by watching amateur or professional porn; the root problem is that these young men haven't learned how to emotionally connect to their sex partners--to listen and respond.

Now, you could mount an argument that excessive porn viewing has diminished these young men's ability to emotionally connect to their sex partners... but then at least we're framing the problem more accurately than when we say porn makes young men demand certain behaviors.

Thanks again to LP.

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"Now, you could mount an ar... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2011 9:00 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"Now, you could mount an argument that excessive porn viewing has diminished these young men's ability to emotionally connect to their sex partners... but then at least we're framing the problem more accurately than when we say porn makes young men demand certain behaviors."

Totally agree with this.


How is it oblivious to go on one date? I certainly would not go anywhere with a guy who says I should turn up at their place and bend over in the shower---

Seriously, pick me up at a bar drunk and sure, stranger sex can be awesome (so long as you don't wind up in a terrible situation which is likely)--- but I can't imagine sober sex with someone you just met, I mean I tried to imagine it, it would be awesome if that could work for me... but man I just so far from can imagine that. Too much, what if I get raped, what if you are dangerous, what if it's akward, what if I develop feelings, NOT FEELINGS!!!...

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"The guys that tried it wit... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2011 9:04 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"The guys that tried it with you were oblivious, but so were you for going with them."

I just have to add, that reeeeeeks of blaming women for sexual assault. People don't deserve to be treated badly just because they didn't see what was coming.

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WHAT THE FUCK IS IT WITH AL... (Below threshold)

February 17, 2011 11:24 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

WHAT THE FUCK IS IT WITH ALL THESE FUCKING LONG NARCISSISTIC COMMENTS?!

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Few people are as kinky as ... (Below threshold)

February 18, 2011 4:13 AM | Posted by A.: | Reply

Few people are as kinky as they think they are. Most just want to be modern, cool and hip and think certain behaviors are the key. Eventually they realize it's not - hopefully before they screw themselves into total sexual dysfunction.

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It is not normal for any hu... (Below threshold)

February 18, 2011 4:28 AM | Posted, in reply to JJ's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

It is not normal for any human being to prefer being fucked up the ass vs other types of sex. It is also not normal for any human being to hop on a stranger's dick, giggle, and bounce up and down. That you are presenting this as a normal way of a human being to behave suggests you do not know many if any human beings.

It is clear you are another porn viewing loser who is pretending to source his opinons from real life experience. Conventional wisdom, common sense, quickly informs us that you are full of shit. Or, maybe you know 1 girl who was raped and molested by all of her family members so that her sexual behavior is now very inappropriate as an adult, and you are assuming this behavior is somehow normal or functional. NO normal human being behaves like a walking talking vesicle for your sexual pleasure, unless you are paying them, and only as long as you are paying them.

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Well, 100% of men who have ... (Below threshold)

February 18, 2011 4:37 AM | Posted, in reply to Iris's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Well, 100% of men who have normal sex drives watch internet porn. Yes, 100%.

I would assume the link would be that men who feel a need to confess to their girlfriend that they are watching internet porn are probably awkward sexually, nervous and such, and are therefore more likely to suffer from premature ejaculation.

What would help this guy would be to stop being a wuss and to get over his sexual shame. All men watch porn. Get over it.

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Re: anal sex.Look, I... (Below threshold)

February 18, 2011 4:56 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Re: anal sex.
Look, I don't care if you like anal sex. Good for you.
What I have a problem with is the implied expectation that anal sex is natural, normal, and that one should by default enjoy it.

The rectum is surrounded by a tight sphincter muscle intended to keep feces in your body or expel it when having a bowel movement. The rectum is not meant to receive a penis. In fact, if one engages in repeated sexual receptive behavior via the anus damage to the sphincter may occur. This is shown in men in prison who have been raped often. No amount of normal sex will damage the anatomy, because the female anatomy is meant to receive a penis. Hell-fucking-oh.

Porn has so totally and completely perverted our sexual perspectives that women are in a position where they have to explain *why* they do not enjoy anal sex, and feel guilty or prudish or like they are denying their partner if they don't want to do it. Anal sex is pretty fucked up if you think about it (hahahaaa o i c what u did there). It is also extremely fucking disgusting, seeing as you are basically involving feces into sex. It's just a hop and a skip away from scat porn.
I mean, at least with oral sex, it's kinky thus exciting, but you are not misusing your anatomy in a painful and potentially dangerous way. And there is no feces involved, blech.

FOr men who engage in homosexual anal sex it is a little different because one, there are constraints on homosexual intercourse (as the male anatomy is not designed for sexual intercourse with other males, you have to make due with what you've got), and two, men have a prostate which makes receiving anal sex rewarding.

If any woman feels pressured to have anal sex from her partner, she should bargain that she will do it if he allows himself to receive and see what it feels like. He might change his mind then.

I totally believe that men who like anal sex are just into degrading women. What is more degrading than forcing a woman to have sex in a painful way, in a way that can't be rewarding for her? I believe women who enjoy anal sex (all 4 of them) are into being degraded in a s&m sort of way, the pleasure for them is in the pain and the degrading nature of it.

When a woman is asked by a man to have anal sex, she should slap him and tell him to GTFO.

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After my wife delivered our... (Below threshold)

February 18, 2011 6:40 AM | Posted by Josun: | Reply

After my wife delivered our son, a guy told me that because of the physical changes brought on by child birth, she'd enjoy the alternative approach. That didn't happen in her case, which is fine by me. I agree that there is something askew when one partner derives pleasure from inflicting pain on the other. That's a deal killer for me, not that I'm any angel.

I do, however, think some women enjoy the option. I am reminded of that old quiz show with Bob Eubanks, "The Newlywed Game." Bob asked questions of one spouse without the other one hearing the answer, then the other spouse was asked how the partner responded to the question. This one time the question was, "What is your favorite place to have sex?" The hapless woman thought a moment and said, "In the butt?" She apparently liked it.

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Speculating about what wome... (Below threshold)

February 18, 2011 8:09 AM | Posted by LB: | Reply

Speculating about what women (or men, for that matter) actually enjoy in the sack is not only futile (let's all agree to disagree--different people like different things for different reasons), it's beside the point. The larger lesson isn't even about porn--it's about habit/routine and taking control of your life. Any habit can be damaging--porn, junk food, drugs/alcohol, television.... it's about taking a look at your life and asking, "Is this how I want to spend the little time I have on this earth?" and, if coming up with a resounding "no," doing something to change that. And the assertion that change must result from changing who you are--how you view the desirability of those habits--is spot on. I am a recovering addict and have worked with other addicts for many years, and this seems to be what works. Become a sober person--embrace this as your identity--and guess what? It won't be all that hard to stay sober. Great writing. Love "pornographization." Good stuff!

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This wasn't about anyone'... (Below threshold)

February 18, 2011 9:11 AM | Posted by leanne: | Reply

This wasn't about anyone's likes or dislikes (including my own - and no I don't read romance novels) The topic was internet porn and it's effects on men (and women)

I am curious how many who commented above, read the actual article linked to this post?
another good one here - http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/02/gail-dines-pornography

Maybe all men do watch porn, and maybe a decade ago I wouldn't have cared or noticed. But just over the last few years there has been a big big change. (I say that from experience) Boys used to learn about sex in different ways, they used to read about it and look at naked pictures- there was a mystery surrounding it, an adventure to take and discoveries to make - what has happened to good sex? ..... the more than OBVIOUS answer is internet porn 101! I worry about our youth, and where this road is leading them. I cant say I have noticed an emotional disconnect as much as a physical , but maybe one leads to the other...
I imagine lots of girls do love anal sex,(never said If I was one of them or not)- some look like they really really enjoy sex with dogs .. Ive seen that online too, will that be the next norm?

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I would say from most of th... (Below threshold)

February 18, 2011 12:21 PM | Posted by JJ: | Reply

I would say from most of the responses here that the writers have no clue about what is involved in deep, meaningful, earth-shattering sex.

I would guess that over 90% of people do not. Probably over 95%.

I can safely say that anyone who complains about what other people are doing sexually has not had a deep sexual experience themselves.

I can safely say that any woman who complains that it is men who are messed up sexually is messed up sexually.

I have experienced a teacher who shows people how to have deep, spiritual, mind-blowing sex. It is an energetic experience that can produce orgasms and ecstatic states even without any genital contact.

No one ever has these experiences by being closed minded about any sexual possibilities. They happen through a deep open-hearted connection of oneness with the other and they show one how to have that oneness with all life.

The teacher's name is David Deida. His techniques don't work with everybody, not even with most people. Most people will live their entire lives being clueless about the deeper potential in sexual experience.

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saddest thing i have read f... (Below threshold)

February 18, 2011 9:41 PM | Posted by randy: | Reply

saddest thing i have read for a long time. seems like you're saying this is all pre-destined. seems pretty deterministic. no exit. nice sartre reference btw, really appreciated that.

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I had deep, meaningful, ear... (Below threshold)

February 19, 2011 2:47 AM | Posted, in reply to JJ's comment, by Lance de Boyle: | Reply

I had deep, meaningful, earth-shattering sex once.

Problem was, the doll exploded (it may have been the meaningful part that did her in) and it was a case of latex shrapnel all over the room.

No matter how many times I vacuumed, I'd always find another piece of her. An ear here. A bit of scalp there.

I miss her and her quiet ways.

I try to re-invoke our nights of passion by rubbing a balloon.

But it's not the same.

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"deep, spiritual, mind-blow... (Below threshold)

February 19, 2011 11:26 PM | Posted, in reply to JJ's comment, by someone: | Reply

"deep, spiritual, mind-blowing sex..."

This is gibberish.

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"I know why you're here, Ne... (Below threshold)

February 19, 2011 11:54 PM | Posted by The Devastator: | Reply

"I know why you're here, Neo. I know what you've been doing... why you hardly sleep, why you live alone, and why night after night, you sit at your computer."

Theory: Every TLP post can be matched to a Matrix quote.

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For once I agree with you.<... (Below threshold)

February 20, 2011 12:02 AM | Posted, in reply to someone's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

For once I agree with you.

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"This is gibberish."... (Below threshold)

February 20, 2011 9:26 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply


"This is gibberish." = "I don't personally know anyone who has experienced that"

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Whats interesting about tho... (Below threshold)

February 20, 2011 1:48 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Whats interesting about those pictures of men is that the black bald guy with tattoos is a gay porn star (Angyl Valantino)

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The rectum is not ... (Below threshold)

February 20, 2011 9:03 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by nwt: | Reply

The rectum is not meant to receive a penis.

Neither is the mouth, the region between the bosoms, the hollow of the knee, the armpit. They are all erogenous zones and many love them.

This is shown in men in prison who have been raped often.

You actually want to equate violent rape with consensual sex? Damn.

Porn has so totally and completely perverted our sexual perspectives that women are in a position where they have to explain *why* they do not enjoy anal sex, and feel guilty or prudish …

Yes, sexual perspectives change and therefore differ. In some cultures it is still a highest perversion to engage in sexual activity outside of marriage. Your subjective judgement on anal sex is no more reasonable than that.

Should you have forgotten, it is not the fault of porn that it is increasingly the only source of sex ed. So don't blame it for what the are deficits of our education system and, more importantly, of parents.

Oh, there's also the element of mutual agreement. You don't even have to have sex in the first place nor must you justify yourself for that, if your partner doesn't get this I suggest you have a larger problem at hand.

It is also extremely fucking disgusting, seeing as you are basically involving feces into sex.

Of course some cannot physically enjoy it, of course it requires physical and mental preparation, attention and precautions, of course the male must not just ram his dick in like a jackhammer.

Moreover, in case you don't know, you generally don't do anal if the recipient hasn't taken a crap for 48h. Like it clean? Do an enema beforehand. Even more clean and the option to switch to vaginal? Use (different) condoms. Didn't want that, were overeager and the guy got some shit on his dick? Clean it with antibacterial soap (do that anyway).

If any woman feels pressured to have anal sex from her partner, she should bargain that she will do it if he allows himself to receive and see what it feels like. He might change his mind then.

That is actually very valid.

I totally believe that men who like anal sex are just into degrading women.

Utter, complete bullshit. Not only do you attempt to you guilt-trip those women who enjoy anal (yes, the rectum's anterior wall can allow the stimulation of the vagina), you also fail to provide any valid argument for your sweeping misandric generalization. Btw, an unlucky hand at choosing one's partners is no basis for the latter.

What is more degrading than forcing a woman to have sex in a painful way, in a way that can't be rewarding for her?

That is rape.

When a woman is asked by a man to have anal sex, she should slap him and tell him to GTFO.

No, she should unapologetically answer his question by stating that she does not want to and only if he does not take this hint proceed to "slap him and tell him to GTFO". Thanks, and kindly get over yourself.

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Here's a thought experiment... (Below threshold)

February 20, 2011 11:31 PM | Posted by Lance de Boyle: | Reply

Here's a thought experiment.

Say you had anal sex with your latex love doll.

Let's call her Martha, because she reminds you of your Mom.

Why the anal?

Was the physical sensation different from vaginal sex?

No.

So why?

1. Taboo. "Up your AAAAAssssss, baby!"
2. Kinky. "Boy, we're pushing the envelop now!"
3. Undiscovered country. "Call me Ponce de Leon."
4. Dominance. "Feels kinda neat pounding you this way."
5. All the preparation makes it seem like a bigger deal than it is.

Normalize it if you want.

But...

You can stick a cigar up your ass and smoke it, but why bother?

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Relevant: <a href="http://w... (Below threshold) This was PURE TL;DR.<... (Below threshold)

February 21, 2011 5:08 AM | Posted, in reply to nwt's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

This was PURE TL;DR.

All that to justify your anal sex porn preoccupation?

"Forced" was not a misnomer, as that is what you are doing when you pressure and guilt trip someone into having a type of sex which is painful and physically unrewarding. The pleasure, for the dominant anal sex partner, is in the other partner's pain/displeasure, and surely he knows that is what she is feeling. In many if not most fantasies of anal sex, some type of dominance/force/inequality of pleasure is implied and that is part of the pleasure.

I'm not guilt tripping anyone who gets off on it, I"m only guilt tripping assholes who are pressuring and guilt tripping their partners to do it.

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Lots of trips into guilt ab... (Below threshold)

February 21, 2011 9:05 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Lots of trips into guilt about anal sex it seems - maybe if the individuals who have such issues with anal sex (but, more importantly, with communication with their sexual partners) actually learned to speak openly and clearly about their sexual desires and experiences with their partners then they'd avoid "guilt trips" about sex. Maybe if people didn't think "guilt tripping" (also known as passive aggressive manipulation) was a proxy for open communication about sex and pleasure - and both people have to be avoiding open and honest communication, and real intimacy, for a dynamic to be about passive aggressive communication - they wouldn't be having uncomfortable anal sex that makes them believe that everyone else who has anal sex is as uncomfortable as they are.)

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This was... (Below threshold)

February 21, 2011 9:22 AM | Posted by nwt: | Reply


This was PURE TL;DR.

Meditation might help the attention span.

All that to justify your anal sex porn preoccupation?
Ad Hominem.
pressure and guilt trip someone into having a type of sex which is painful and physically unrewarding
A behavior which is to exactly 0% caused by anal sex – as if that was possible – but by an absolute lack of respect for one's partner. NB: Why would one even (continue) to be with such a person?

Also, to repeat: Anal sex is not "painful and physically unrewarding" for everybody. It may well be so for a majority, though.

The pleasure, for the dominant anal sex partner, is in the other partner's pain/displeasure, and surely he knows that is what she is feeling. In many if not most fantasies of anal sex, some type of dominance/force/inequality of pleasure […]

So smut porn and shitty partners would suggest.

There are men who dig Asian women explicitly because they view them as nothing but limp sex objects. Should all Asian women thus be discouraged from having sex? A proposal no more absurd than the outright damnation of anal sex.

In other words, this can be said of every form of sex. Whether or not some can indeed be more prone for such asymmetries does, again, not suffice for an outright damnation.

I'm not guilt tripping anyone who gets off on it, I"m only guilt tripping assholes who are pressuring and guilt tripping their partners to do it.
To which I would agree were you not employing invalid generalizations.

Two links:
     nymag.com/nightlife/mating/25988
     en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anal_sex#Prevalence

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Sorry, forgot to press the ... (Below threshold)

February 21, 2011 9:29 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by nwt: | Reply

Sorry, forgot to press the reply button for my actual follow-up, hence this otherwise empty comment in case you are relying on email notification.

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'"Forced" was not a misnome... (Below threshold)

February 21, 2011 9:50 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

'"Forced" was not a misnomer, as that is what you are doing when you pressure and guilt trip someone into having a type of sex which is painful and physically unrewarding.'

Seriously, if someone can "force" you to have painful, unwanted sex via guilt, you've got bigger relationship (and personal) issues than anal sex. Being responsible for one's own sexual choices, this includes if one makes a passive aggressive agreement to have anal sex you don't want because you'll get someone else non-sexual out of it, is pretty basic to behaving with sexual integrity. Blaming someone else for your own poor choices or bargains - such as claiming you've been "forced" to do something when you've actually traded off sexual discomfort for some other kind of reward (the guilty trade you've made) - is not taking adult responsibility for one's choices or actions.

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"Being responsible for one'... (Below threshold)

February 21, 2011 11:40 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"Being responsible for one's own sexual choices, this includes if one makes a passive aggressive agreement to have anal sex you don't want because you'll get someone else non-sexual out of it, is pretty basic to behaving with sexual integrity."

While "someone else non-sexual" may also be applicable here, I actually meant "something else non-sexual".

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Being a male and cofessin... (Below threshold)

February 21, 2011 12:36 PM | Posted by Harry Horton: | Reply

Being a male and cofessing to roaming around through these porn sites occasionally (hoperfully thats true)as well as suffering from paranoia due to my mental illness, one interesting overlooked fact about these sites is some of them carry some fairly nasty viruses that can destroy your whole computer system. This issue leaves me to wonder, if North Korean nuclear arsenal personnel roam these sites while on the job manning their nuclear missle systems. I conjured this image of some nuclear technician type of soldier sitting in a nuclear armanent facility in north Korea around two in the morning, visiting various porn sites. And as he comes across one, the porn site sends a virus into the facility's nuclear arsenal computer system. The nightwatchman operator sees the computer screen light up, such as a flare up with messages like systems now crashing, your computer is infected with a virus, take urgent action now recommend trojan anti viral programming format. Eventually after a couple of minutes trying to remedy the situation a final subsequent signal flares up on the screen: automatic launch now in effect. And the North Korean nuclear missles are on their way to Seoul, Los Angeles and other destinations. Sounds sort of schizo and way out there, but with archaic computer systems in some of these countries military areas the scenario could possibly be not too far of the mark. I can imagine a few years after such an above situation school kids reading history in a classroom in America getting an assignment :who were the four major parties in the North Korean nuclear conflict of 2012. That is when the paranoid North Korean government launched a nuclear missle attack on several cities. North Korea, South Korea, South Dakota and I share my bitch porn site, I guess the correct answers could be with such a hypothetical situation. In anycase, as crazy as it sounds, I wonder if the state department or pentagon, has ever looked into this area with cyber attacks occuring all throughout the web.

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"Blaming someone else for y... (Below threshold)

February 21, 2011 4:12 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"Blaming someone else for your own poor choices or bargains - such as claiming you've been "forced" to do something when you've actually traded off sexual discomfort for some other kind of reward (the guilty trade you've made) - is not taking adult responsibility for one's choices or actions."

There are a lot of reasons human beings allow themselves to be treated badly. I am all about encouraging people to understand those reasons and find something better for themselves if being treated badly isn't working for them;

However you present this scenario as if a person having issues that lead them to allow themselves to be treated badly puts those who treat them badly (and know they are purposefully exploiting someone vulnerable) in the clear.

Living your life with the motto "So long as I convince someone to let me hurt them I don't care what my long term (or short term) affect on their life is" is a really horrible way to interact with human beings.

This is really the problem we're talking about and not "anal sex" per se.

And in general, I understand that you're beef here is that anal sex doesn't get a bad rap; but when you meet people who have a problem with being treated badly do you tend to put them down? It's a pretty common way to treat people who have problems being in abusive situations but there are very often very legitimate reasons why people might have such issues.

Often issues that might humble you and make you wonder if treating them like less of a person for struggling with boundaries and how to have healthy sexual relationships was really the right way to respond to that. I have some friends that have been sexually abused in childhood and their boundaries are not good. They get hurt and sure hopefully they will figure it out.

But people looking for a healthy relationship in which they treat their partner well often avoid "broken goods". They can become magnets for people looking for easy prey and an opportunity to revictimize. I know guys who talk openly about how this is a desirable thing for them. The guys that really worry about me are the guys who operate that way but AREN'T open about it.

Why do you suppose that a portion of men who view sex as an opportunity to hurt someone (or women who view sex the same way although I don't think this is statistically as common)--- isn't a problem in and of itself?

I get that you think "those people who get treated bad just need to figure their shit out because I sure don't care"

but that's such a sad way to view your fellow human beings. I'm not saying you can fix it because you can't "fix" people and no that's not your job. You can however care, and be there for people rather just spitting on them when they're down.

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And are you really prepared... (Below threshold)

February 21, 2011 5:05 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

And are you really prepared to say that any woman with self esteem issues, who'se struggles with life, who is barely making it, who struggles to find friends, who has mental illness:

who is an easy target to be manipulated and hurt deserves to be treated that way?

Are you saying that is a fair exchange? "I see that all your friends disappeared when you got out of the mental hospital and I'll allow you to be in my presence if you let me fuck you up the ass particularly because you say you don't like it that way"

Are you really going to say that there is an equal weight on the shoulders of both people involved in that type of interaction?

I would posit: what kind of society are we living in if we are cheering on the exploiter and berating the person exploited?

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No, I'm talking about women... (Below threshold)

February 21, 2011 5:23 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

No, I'm talking about women who consider themselves adults in a sexual relationship. Part of being an adult is taking responsibility for your choices. If you're scared your lover will leave you simply because you won't have anal sex, so you agree to it to keep your lover, then there are much bigger issues at play regarding the relationship and the people involved if you end up being resentful instead of taking responsibility for making that choice. That doesn't make anal sex some horrible thing, or men and women who enjoy it horrible people who want to hurt each other. It has nothing to do with anal sex really at the end of the day, it has to do with honesty, trust and respect in a sexual relationship (and the larger relationship) and people not being honest about their own desires.

Obviously we're talking about adult women who aren't incapable of being responsible for themselves due to mental illness. That's a whole other kettle of fish, not only in regard to sexual relationships but romantic ones in general.

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"Obviously we're talking ab... (Below threshold)

February 21, 2011 7:50 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"Obviously we're talking about adult women who aren't incapable of being responsible for themselves due to mental illness."

Considering according to some studies a fourth of the US population is considered to have some form of mental illness I don't think there's anything obvious about this assumption.

Many of us in dating relationships have difficult life issues that complicate relationships. That isn't some remote minority worthy of being erased from the discussion, particularly considering we're having a discussion on a mental health themed blog.

I personally didn't write the comment you were originally debating and I have never said that anal sex is always exploitive.

You dismissed a persons claim of saying, "But anal sex is exploitive" and you said "No it's not--- but anyways if it is sometimes, who cares"

And I'm saying I think that's a crappy thing to say. I personally care. Again, I agree that it's not about anal sex and it doesn't mean anal sex is inherantly bad. I never said those things and I'm not arguing that.

What I am saying is that there are a lot of people in exploitive/non communicative relationships. The interrelatedness with porn is a surety but in saying that I mean to say porn shows us what we like as much or more than porn influences what we like. There is a lot of exploitation in the porn I've seen and it's a major theme.

Some of these people might not want to be exploited. Is that irrelevant in this equation? And if it is irrelvant to most people--- maybe that's a problem and I sign that we are not particularly compassionate.

It could be a relevant issue in many of the common relationship issues americans are talking about having.

Perhaps we should care.

"If you're scared your lover will leave you simply because you won't have anal sex, so you agree to it to keep your lover, then there are much bigger issues at play regarding the relationship and the people involved if you end up being resentful instead of taking responsibility for making that choice."

What if as the article implies, many women ARE scared they won't be able to find a partner because they don't want to do the things they see in porn? I recognize already that you don't care about anyone because others aren't "your problem" (in which why are you even here to argue, to prove how much we shouldn't care about each other? Oh yeah, to defend anal sex.... because THAT's a more worthy cause than the emotions of human beings. Got it.)

What if a lot of people ARE detached from each other and have a hard time caring about each others emotions--- regardless of what it's relationship to porn is, shouldn't we care to help people find ways to create empathetic relationships?

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"That doesn't make anal sex... (Below threshold)

February 21, 2011 8:25 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"That doesn't make anal sex some horrible thing, or men and women who enjoy it horrible people who want to hurt each other. It has nothing to do with anal sex really at the end of the day, it has to do with honesty, trust and respect in a sexual relationship (and the larger relationship) and people not being honest about their own desires. "

I agree with you here. The original poster identified a legitimate problem but worded it wrong "the problem is anal sex". The problem is not anal sex or porn, but the original poster presented a valid problem that a large portion of women I know have dealt with. And yes I know many men who purposefully push (verbally) women into having anal sex without being honest about their motives. You could insert any other sexual act the woman doesn't want to do and it's the same thing.

You're right that the problem here is way beyond "anal sex" but men who completely disengage from how a woman might be feeling about their actions, or rather... or looking to cause harm on purpose and seeking vulnerabilities in a woman that would allow them to get away with this. There is a whole culture of men who want to get as close to rape as possible without going to jail. And that, to me, isn't a sign that women need to feel more guilty if they get exploited.

It's a sign we should work to help men and women develop empathy and understanding of each other and how each others actions can cause negative or positive impacts on the other persons life.

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Notice how in these comment... (Below threshold)

February 22, 2011 1:14 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Notice how in these comments it's a bunch of (disgusting, fat, grotesque, etc) males who are all in favor of anal sex?

The fact that you never, ever, ever hear of a woman promote/ask for anal sex (other than perhaps some kind of porn star or similar sexually disordered/abnormal individual) is all the evidence one needs that anal sex is not pleasurable for women.

Guys love anal sex because part of the turn on is how much of a turn off it is for her. Guys saying otherwise are lying. The turn on is the turn off for her. It's filthy and disgusting, there is no mechanism for it to be physically pleasurable for a female partner, it involves excrement (and in pornography featuring anal sex, the filthiness in terms of feces/health risk is used against the female partner, such as a woman having anal sex and then immediately having oral sex afterward, this is not uncommon in pornogrpahy). That IS THE TURN ON - her domination, her lack of pleasure, her pain.

I just find it so interesting that so many men here are defending anal sex as if I were attacking a constitutional right. It's like, doth protest too much? I'm not trying to take away your anal PR0n... I'm just letting you all know it's fucked up and you only find it so erotic because of the pain/domination of the female partner. IF that truth makes you uncomfortable, oh well, deal with your issues. It doesn't make it less true simply because you wish it were less true. It's sorta how date rapists are so uncomfortable with the word "rape" and they like to view their behavior as somehow different than that. No, you can think whatever you want in your head but at the end of the day when you pressure/force/drug a woman into having sex with you, you're still a piece of shit rapist.

Similarly if you are majorly fixated with pressuring women into having anal sex (when you KNOW that anatomically it is painful, unpleasurable, and entirely selfish) it doesn't make you any less of a piece of shit.

Just saying!

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I was the anon who said wom... (Below threshold)

February 22, 2011 1:23 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I was the anon who said women should tell men to GTFO if they ask for anal sex.

Posters who are saying my point was that men pressure women into unsatisfying, uncomfortable, painful sexual acts forcing them to compete with porn, that was my point.

Anal sex is a special sex act because almost 99% of the time, this meets the above criteria. In fact, I believe men who really like anal sex actually just really like dominating and hurting women sexually. Women NEEEVER ask for anal sex. I mean, maybe it has happened before but it's probably exceedingly rare. This is the only sort of heterosexual sex act where there is such an inequality in preference, with almost all encounters involving a small fraction of men really wanting it and trying to pressure women into it, and almost all women not wanting it and only doing it after being pressured. I can't think of any other type of heterosexual interaction, other than rape or sexual assault, which meets that criteria.


So, it is safe to say, when "anal sex" enters the picture, suspect an asshole (haahahaha oic what u did thar).

This is why I really, really don't like the subject of anal sex and why I view (heterosexual) men who are preoccupied with it, as pieces of garbage.

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There is no right or wrong.... (Below threshold)

February 22, 2011 1:23 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

There is no right or wrong. But thinking makes it so.

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Both you anti-anal sex anon... (Below threshold)

February 22, 2011 7:35 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Both you anti-anal sex anonymice seem incredibly obsessed with anal sex - so much so that you consider yourself experts on it! And one of you seems to watch a lot of anal sex porn and get into relationships were you'll perform unpleasant sexual tricks in exchange for something else you value more (quite possibly staying in an unhealthy relationship). Seems like you choose abusive partners that reinforce your beliefs about men and then submit to sexual acts that you don't enjoy to keep them. Or perhaps so you can claim to be manipulated and victimized into being the masochist you seem to be from everything you write - why not grown up and deal with your emotional and power issues honestly instead of making it all about controlling what other people want or do with their bodies? If you have anal sex because you're afraid your partner will leave if you don't, you're making a bargain to stay in a bad relationship - you aren't actually being manipulated, you're being quite manipulative in fact.

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"When a woman is asked by a... (Below threshold)

February 22, 2011 3:24 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

"When a woman is asked by a man to have anal sex, she should slap him and tell him to GTFO."

If your immediate response to someone who suggests something you would not like is to resort to violence against them, then no wonder you sound bitter. No healthy, intelligent person is going to want to be within ten feet of you, male or female. No male is going to put up with you unless they are highly passive aggressive.

Imagine if someone suggested that if a woman asked a man to do something most men find horrible, like anal stimulation with his tongue, that his first response should be to hit her. That person would be a monster, regardless of gender. Any man who agreed with that person would also be a monster, and any woman who supported it would be pitifully dysfunctional at best. The opposite is also true. A man may be less likely to be injured by a member of the opposite sex hitting him, but he is no less of a valid human being.

In the situation you described, the man is at least decent enough to discuss it instead of spontaneously using violence to make you behave how he wants. Even if he is scummy, and discusses it in a scummy way, he's still done better than you suggested women do.

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"Both you anti-anal sex ano... (Below threshold)

February 22, 2011 8:48 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"Both you anti-anal sex anonymice seem incredibly obsessed with anal sex - so much so that you consider yourself experts on it!"

I'm not sure who you're refering to here. I personally haven't claimed to be "anti anal sex"

"Or perhaps so you can claim to be manipulated and victimized into being the masochist you seem to be from everything you write - why not grown up and deal with your emotional and power issues honestly instead of making it all about controlling what other people want or do with their bodies?"

Again, not sure if you are referring to me (anon 7:50)
I think you are misunderstanding the myriad of reasons that abuse happens in relationships. That is A reason that abuse happens in a relationship and yes,it can go both sides.

I'm not sure where I am attempting to control what other people want to do with their bodies? I think you're compiling a bunch of different peoples words into one argument. There's a bunch of different people here (Is this basically a bunch of women vs a bunch of men? Just out of curiousity.)

I personally have been anally raped before so perhaps you are sensing that I want to make sure people are protected from exploitation and abuse. I told a guy I didn't like anal sex at all so he help my hands down and raped me up the ass. I had bruises all over my hands and fought that guy as hard as I possibly could. I had already agreed to have sex with him and I was not expecting that.

The first time I had anal sex I tried it a few times and discovered I didn't like it. In real life I'm afraid to ever tell anyone I don't like anal sex because I feel like I'm giving them the knowledge of how to hurt me.

There are a lot of different reasons why people wind up being treated badly and not all of them are because people are "asking for it".

When I was treated the worst I was doing a lot of yoga and art and therapy and trying really hard to heal and be happy and loving and I went too far in the direction of loving everyone. I thought people were kind because they behaved like they wanted to be kind. That doesn't make people deserve to be hurt.

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I also want to point out th... (Below threshold)

February 22, 2011 9:08 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I also want to point out that both men and women that feel they are not worthy of human compassion and interaction unless they give sex don't more people treating them like crap. In my experience this usually happens in people with really messed up life issues and who were deprived of interactions with humans in school or at home or both.

The people who most need love because it's absent in their homelife are the first to be cut off from peers in my experience. People need at least some human relationships. If you see someone who is devoid of human relationships and you offer them respite for that in exchange for something that will intentionally hurt them... just because you get off on hurting them and not because you're legitimately trading for something that you need or will genuinely benefit your life--- that's crappy.

It's not fair trade. Not every one has equal goods to trade.

From what I understand--- you're a relationship capitalist.

You would defend the right to exploit before you would defend the exploited.

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I am not surprised you were... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 1:44 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I am not surprised you were anally raped. As I believed and stated prior, part of the turn on for men is the control, domination, her face being down/away, you knowing her gentialia is not being stimulated, she is not enjoying it, she is in pain, you being totally in power. This is why anal sex is so popular in porn.

I would suspect that of those men who do rape or are preoccupied with it, there is a fixation with anal sex. This sex act is the symbolic epitome of the female body being used as an object for male physical stimulation, with her being dehumanized and submissive to accomplish that.

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No, I'm not defending the "... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 10:29 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

No, I'm not defending the "right to exploit", what I'm doing is pointing out that, while your experience of relationships may be all about exploitation, sexual abuse and manipulation, not all relationships are about exploitation and abuse. Since you're an adult woman in America who can choose who she associates with, why are you continually choosing to have relationships with abusive men?

Have you ever considered taking responsibility for your actions? That's how one empowers oneself but it does require taking personal responsibility for oneself and one's choices rather than merely externalizing blame (this isn't condoning rape in a relationship, it's asking you why you're unwilling to recognize a pattern in the choices you're making so you can make better choices). It's actually what feminism (and all liberation/freedom) is about, being an adult who is responsible for herself and her choices. Generations of women in my family have worked so that we have choices and are allowed to make them for ourselves - that's what stepping out from under the yoke of paternalism/colonialism entails. If we refuse to see how our choices and actions contribute to us ending up in situations that we don't want, we can never make different choices so we're doomed to repeat the pattern over and over again. There can be no freedom without responsibility but many men and women are willing to give up freedom because it's easier than actually working on empowering oneself (and then you can blame everyone else for one's choices or choice through passiveness - simply being passive is a choice in and of itself to hand power away to the other).

And, really, a bit of self care and love goes a long way to preventing these self perpetuated cycles of abuse. If you're choosing to be in abusive relationships, get some professional help sorting out why you're making these choices.

There seems to be a pattern in the partners you pick if they're all obsessed with anal sex and abusive towards you - I say this because the reality is that not all men are obsessed with anal sex (even if the ones you choose to sleep with are, in fact some don't even like the idea of it). You want to make it all anal sex, porn or men's fault that you have dysfunctional, sexually abusive relationships and choose men that don't respect or care about you. Both people contribute to a relationship's dynamic, including abusive ones, pretending that any of us don't contribute to our own relationships is simply giving all the power we have to shape our own lives and make our own choices away. If you're incapable of making other choices for psychological or emotional reasons, then perhaps that would be more constructive for you to focus on instead since then at least you'd have power over yourself instead of abdicating it to any dick that comes along that wants you to bargain anal sex for him staying with you (or whatever unspoken deal you negotiate with yourself).

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SHE lives in the East Villa... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 12:03 PM | Posted by d: | Reply

SHE lives in the East Village apartment and it was HER Neil Young...looks like your premise is a little off. What happened to methodology?

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"And, really, a bit of self... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 12:36 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"And, really, a bit of self care and love goes a long way to preventing these self perpetuated cycles of abuse. If you're choosing to be in abusive relationships, get some professional help sorting out why you're making these choices."

Seriously? You're going to give me this lecture without knowing me at all or the details of my life?

No I'm not choosing to be in any relationships because FUCK THAT. Fuck you, you don't know shit about what I've been through or what I have "chosen".

In any circumstance every guy that has found out that I've been through messed up sexual experiences does the same shit. Including "nice guys" that everyone thinks are so gentle and sweet and kind.


I don't get raped and I don't get sexually abused anymore because I NEVER will fucking trust someone who says they are trustworthy, no I don't want to go in your office to go over the papers, no I don't want to get a ride with you, no I will not ever walk into a room alone with you.

I will never trust again.

And if you're going to turn around and say "Oh you SHOULD trust guys, you just have to pick the right ones"

What the fuck? IT'S THAT MENTALITY THAT GOT ME INTO FUCKED UP SITUATIONS.

"Oh this person is a respectable person and they have a nice job and their friends trust them and I've gotten to know them a while and they've been very kind and supportive"

So not only am I going to be scolded by you for being raped, but I'm also going to be scolded by you for not trusting?

That's fucked up shit. You don't know me to judge whether I was "choosing" to be raped or not.

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"No, I'm not defending the ... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 1:02 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"No, I'm not defending the "right to exploit", what I'm doing is pointing out that, while your experience of relationships may be all about exploitation, sexual abuse and manipulation, not all relationships are about exploitation and abuse."

I never said that all relationships are about exploitation and abuse. You're picking about my arguments as if I'm one of the people who is saying "anal sex is always bad" an I'm not. Don't confuse what I'm saying with other peoples words.


What I'm saying is, if guys who liked exploiting people, particularly people who WEREN'T EVEN ASKING FOR IT, that they knew would be destroyed by it and that they knew they could get away with it because the person is already so broken ---

If these guys had tags on their forheads you might be surprised who among the guys you know would wear them. You might be surprised to find that guy who'se married and a great husband and kind and treats his wife wonderfully, did something really horrible to some 17 year old girl last summer.

Or that the guy who is a counselor and works with people who have issues and is well respected and has an adoring wife who would say he wouldn't hurt a fly, is into getting his co-workers in awkward positions where he's clearly trying to make them accept his physical contact on their bodies while trying to act like that's a normal part of doing papers.

No thank you dude, and yes I moved away so fuck you in advance for telling me this was my fault. No I won't just sit there and let guys rub their legs all up agaisnt mine despite them being superiors and acting like it should eb no big deal.

I just don't know how well the teenage girls he works with know to move away.

You might be surprised to know that the guy you're friends with who is hard working and has two kids that he is great with used to sexually abuse an underaged girl when he was in his 20s, and purposefully impregnated her and left her to deal with the after math of that.

YOU WOULD BE SURPRISED who these people are. They aren't monsters that going around beating people up and doing drugs. They are often really nice people and when they see a vulnerable person, particularly that they know has been abused, they find out they want to hurt people even if they didn't think that was what they wanted.

Why do these guys who did horrible things get accepted in the community. When I am left broken and hurting I get fucking yelled at for being broken and hurting.

I never said that all relationships are exploitive--- I'm saying there is a lot of exlpoitation in porn. I remember once my co-workers were watching leaving las vegas and they're like "oh anal sex is so hot" watching the rape scene.

That's not sex, that's rape. But in the minds of at least some guys, it DOES all blend together. Why do they get off the hook and you want to berate me? I don't date. I don't get abused. I don't need a pep talk. I'm just saying I know a huge amount of people, other than myself, who have dealt with exploitive sex in their relationships and it's a really common problem.

I think it's relation with porn is relevant.

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Nobody said you chose to be... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 1:13 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Nobody said you chose to be raped, none of us do (otherwise it's not actually rape, if there's choice/consent it's role playing obviously and not rape). What you've said yourself is that you chose abusive relationships and you were abused. But, hey, nice attempt to pretend that you're being victimized simply because you're being challenged to look at your relationship choices and projection of your experienced with choosing abusive partners and anal sex onto everyone else.

What you have said is that you chose to be in relationships with men who you say wanted to hurt you and force you to have anal sex. You claimed they wanted to have anal sex because they wanted to hurt you, that indicates that you chose to be involved with abusive men. Clearly if you keep choosing to be with men like this there's something you're getting out of the abusive dynamic, particularly since you're more interested in defending your identity as a victim (and making other people responsible for your choices) than you are in actually doing the work to empower yourself so you can make better choices for yourself.

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"I don't get raped and I do... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 1:32 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

"I don't get raped and I don't get sexually abused anymore because I NEVER will fucking trust someone who says they are trustworthy, no I don't want to go in your office to go over the papers, no I don't want to get a ride with you, no I will not ever walk into a room alone with you."

Why would anyone trust someone just because they say they're trustworthy? Every con man claims to have integrity! That's another good example of not taking responsibility for oneself and giving all your power away. Trust is something we earn by showing through our actions that we can be trusted. And, even if we trust someone else that doesn't mean we stop taking responsibility for ourselves and make the other person entirely responsible for us or the outcome. Relationships involve two people and both contribute to any dynamic - the fastest way to change a dynamic is to change how we act instead of trying to control how others act.

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I think this conversation i... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 1:35 PM | Posted by n: | Reply

I think this conversation is getting confusing with so many anonymous people so for clarities sake; these are my comments:
3:25
4:12
5:05
8:25
9:08
12:36
1:02


I never said anal sex is always exploitation, or that all relationships in the world are exploitive. I am saying that myself and many many women (and a few men) have experienced confusing exploitation themes in their sexual interactions. It's really common, and it's also really common in porn, I would imagine largely because it's something that tends to turn people on rather than that porn causes people to be exploitive.

The fact that porn encourages the viewer to detach from the reasons the porn actor is there, what they may be going through, and whether or not they actually like being in exploitive scenes (or encouraging the viewer to ENJOY that the actor/actress may be truly being psychologically harmed) I would imagine would impact us, and exacerbate problems of detaching from the human in front of you when you have sex.

(Who cares how this makes them feel, they entered a relationship with me and/or my bedroom so anything I do to them no matter how much it damages them, is morally fine and I'm not doing anything wrong)

I'll call myself n if I post further.

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"What you have said is that... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 1:40 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"What you have said is that you chose to be in relationships with men who you say wanted to hurt you and force you to have anal sex."

You think I stayed in a relationship with the guy who forced me to have anal sex? I never said I stayed in relationships when men became abusive. I left immediately when partners demonstrated they wanted to be cruel.

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You can leave a partner who... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 1:44 PM | Posted by n: | Reply

You can leave a partner who demonstrates they want to hurt you, but that doesn't mean there isnt an emotional toll in being present for whatever they did to try to hurt you.

"Clearly if you keep choosing to be with men like this there's something you're getting out of the abusive dynamic, particularly since you're more interested in defending your identity as a victim (and making other people responsible for your choices) than you are in actually doing the work to empower yourself so you can make better choices for yourself. "

I'm not choosing to be with men like this. I'm not sure why you keep insisting that I am.

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"Since you're an adult woma... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 1:54 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"Since you're an adult woman in America who can choose who she associates with, why are you continually choosing to have relationships with abusive men?"

Haven't dated in five years. Why are you continually accusing me of doing something that I'm not doing?

I was not always an adult woman. Most of the abuse I endured happened when I was 16 and 17. After that I was noticably scared of men which made me an easy target. No I no longer allow myself to be afriad of men.

Being afraid does not equal "want to be abused". The second I learned that projecting a lack of fear could protect me I enacted that immediately. If I wanted to be abused and was getting so much out of it for my victim identity as you claim, then I would walk around in fear trying to get abused.

I'm not doing that, so what is it you're accusing me of, really?

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"I'm not choosing to be wit... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 2:30 PM | Posted, in reply to n's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

"I'm not choosing to be with men like this. I'm not sure why you keep insisting that I am."

So do you think people choose to get into relationships? Do you make a choice about who you get involved in a relationship with?

"You can leave a partner who demonstrates they want to hurt you, but that doesn't mean there isnt an emotional toll in being present for whatever they did to try to hurt you."

The point is if someone is continually choosing partners that they believe want to abuse them via anal sex, or that want to hurt them via anal sex, over and over again then they obviously play some role in this. You seem to want to make it sound like relationships are things that happen to people and not dynamics that both people engage in and contribute to.

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"The point is if someone is... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 3:12 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"The point is if someone is continually choosing partners that they believe want to abuse them via anal sex, or that want to hurt them via anal sex, over and over again then they obviously play some role in this."

Of course you don't have to stay in abusive relationships. I never said I was ever continually choosing partners that I believed wanted to hurt me via anal sex. You're back to saying I chose to be raped.

I did not expect that in the slightest. Where is the slew of anal exploiters coming from? I have never claimed that I dated a slew of men that exploited me with anal sex.

I have never stated that all or most relationships are exploitive. This article talks about ways that porn may influence human sexual desire and human behavior in relationships.

It would make sense that the high level of exploitation in porn might have some affect on peoples desire for exploitive interactions.

Social isolation in rats seems to cause high levels of dominant aggressive (and abnormal) behavior in juvenile rats. ( http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TBX-4V2G7MK-1&_user=10&_coverDate=04%2F30%2F2009&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1653551262&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=0025fcb479d9e3b7037df2ca1bf4cb89&searchtype=a) I would imagine that a huge range of environmental and psychological factors can cause people to desire to exploit other people.

I am saying that for people who still are dating, it's very hard to tell who is and who isn't intending to exploit you. And if you find out when you decide to have sex with them that that is their intention, it's too late. They already have you where they want you.

I also wonder about how this view that "all is fair in a relationship so long as the person chooses to be there" really works--- and if that is what you believe than no research into how anything affects our relationships, ability to be empathetic, or level of compassion for each other really matters.

I think if there are a large number of people who are experiencing a lot of pain in their relationships then it matters to me personally. How can we guide people into healthier relationships? Shouldn't we want to do research on what affects healthy intimacy and give that to human beings so that they can use that to improve their lives?

And if we have high numbers of people wanting to exploit each other, I personally think that matters and we should try to understant what's going on with that. The number of men who I discovered were interested in that is what lead me away from dating. I am NOT interested in dating people who want to hurt me, thank you very much.

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3:12 is me keep forgetting<... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 3:46 PM | Posted by n: | Reply

3:12 is me keep forgetting

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"I am saying that for peopl... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 4:38 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

"I am saying that for people who still are dating, it's very hard to tell who is and who isn't intending to exploit you. And if you find out when you decide to have sex with them that that is their intention, it's too late. They already have you where they want you."

No it's not really that hard and certainly not impossible, what one can do is take the time getting to know someone by their actions before having sex with them - this was the point I was making about trust being something we earn (and that others need to earn from us). There is an option other than trusting strangers with candy or not trusting anyone, that other option is taking the time to get to know someone from their behavior so that one can see how they treat you and others in a safer environment than being alone with someone you don't really know in a bedroom.

To look at this issue from another side, do you think that women who read romance novels or who watch romantic movies that feature pirates ravishing damsels tied to masts want to be raped or "overpowered" in real life simply because they enjoy watching or reading about it?

And of course rape is abuse and I'm not condoning it (though another anonymous may), what I'm saying is that if someone repeatedly ends up in abusive relationships that they have boundary issues of their own to resolve - that they participate in the dance somehow (though they may not be aware how or how to extricate themselves without professional help or guidance from someone who has already deal with these issues).

I'd also propose that someone who gets off on hurting other people in a non-consensual situation - sexual assault as opposed to consensual play - would get off on that whether they watched anal porn or not. They're a sadist and that doesn't have to do with being male or female and isn't something that suddenly happens from watching anal porn, it has to do with a psychopathology and getting off on cruelty. Sadists (of the non-consensual sort) reveal themselves pretty quickly by how they treat others in their everyday life so taking the time to get to know people through their actions before trusting them - testing to see if they respect boundaries you set - will reveal who they really are quite quickly.

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I'm certainly not against r... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 4:48 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I'm certainly not against research into relationships, what I'm saying is that there are proactive things women (and men) can do to avoid being abused. Trust is essential to intimate non-exploitative relationships, so learning that trust isn't an all or nothing proposition - that it's something we earn and others earn from us via their words and actions aligning - is doing something constructive.

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"No it's not really that ha... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 5:01 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"No it's not really that hard and certainly not impossible, what one can do is take the time getting to know someone by their actions before having sex with them - this was the point I was making about trust being something we earn (and that others need to earn from us)."

If you did any research on revictimization after sexual assualt particular sexual assault that happened in childhood or adolescence; you would find that there are a myriad of reasons that revictimization occurs and accepting abuse as an inherant part of a relationship is only one of them.

Something that is really difficult to research for obvious reasons is the fact that people get off on hearing about real sexual abuse. It's not pretty and I can't give you accurate stats on what percentage of the population this is, but I have talked openly about this phenomenon with a large number of people and was surprised to find that most people I discussed it with would say, "Yeah I've had feelings like that."

Men and women. I had one female friend that confessed she used things that had happened to me in her own fantasies. And that they were fantasies of those things happening to me and not to her.

Huh.

I had one male friend who I was really close with for 8 months and hung out every day. He was a gentle kind person, who cared deeply about humanity and was working on a degree in psychology. He snuck into my room and read my diary and confessed that he was really aroused by the stuff that happened to me. Jees I didn't know being raped by a 21 year old when you're 16 was so very hot.

I have had five different guys who wanted to date me pretend to want to hear about the sexual abuse I went through "because they cared" and wanted to work through it with me. By the nature of the questions they started asking, "So... were you dry, was the area rough?" I could tell they were just sitting there dripping with precum so I stopped ever agreeing to tell anyone about these experiences in real life. (One of these people attempted to get me to talk about these experiences to get me in a freeze response such that he could assault me, but I fought him off).

These were all people that I had known very well. Spent a long time getting to know and had fun with and built trust with and seen that they were very compassionate people. I've in fact talked with a number of licensed therapists who said that they found themselves aroused while hearing victim stories (both of these were women who had experienced CSA and had experienced arousal regarding their own abuse).

These aren't sadists who want to go around hurting people. They are very good people, most of whom would try not to let their feelings cause harm to someone else. At least, the ones who were honest about it. It's the guys who say they wouldnt have any arousal over it that I wouldn't trust at all. They are the ones that have tried to use that against me.

Again--- most of this happened when I was a teen and young adult. Of course I don't go around dating abusive people. But the ease with which a person can find arousal over revictimizing someone, especially if they discover the person has experienced tonic immobility in relation to sexual abuse--- can make it an unfortunate situation in which people who didn't mean to go that route can wind up doing things they regret and that cause a great deal of harm.

I don't date men for their protection as much as mine. I don't want to be the vehicle for any more people to realize they've been wanting to hurt a woman more than they ever realized.

So--- for people with past abuse it really can be that hard. These same guys would never do that kind of thing with other women. No one else would ever know.

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"These aren't sadists who w... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 6:04 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"These aren't sadists who want to go around hurting people. They are very good people, most of whom would try not to let their feelings cause harm to someone else. At least, the ones who were honest about it. It's the guys who say they wouldnt have any arousal over it that I wouldn't trust at all. They are the ones that have tried to use that against me."

It's not feelings that cause harm to others, it's actions. I'd suggest that someone who invades your privacy by reading your diary and gets off on reading about how horrible being raped made you feel is someone who routinely violates boundaries - they may say they're a "good person" but their actions clearly state that they don't respect you or boundaries. Once again, it's not about who people claim to be but who they reveal themselves to be via their actions. If you only believe and "trust" people who claim to get sexually aroused by your sexual violation - and think all the people aren't aroused by rape are liars (are you in this category or do you think you're the only exception?) - then obviously you're choosing to "trust" and only engage in relationships with people who do tell you they get off on rape. It means you're then consciously rejecting people who don't get off on rape or violating others in favor of people who do get off on rape (or rape fantasies at least) - that's self selecting for sadists in your life.

And, yes, of course boundary violations in childhood and growing up being abused mean we have to learn things that people who grew up in healthy environments learned naturally through having loving, trusting relationships. That's exactly what I'm recommending. There will always be people who will take advantage (often quite unconsciously because the boundaries are unclear) of people with poor boundaries, the way to prevent this is to learn appropriate boundaries and how trust really works.

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So, when I used to believe ... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 6:28 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

So, when I used to believe it was possible to find people who were trustworthy and I put in so much work, therapy, reading, etc--- and spent long amounts of time getting to know people who treated people well and were kind people, and still eventually that issue seemed to turn up the same results---- how am I supposed to interperet that?

I'm done, I put in so much of all the kind of work you are espousing that I do. I DID THAT.

I'm not sure what more you want of me. I went to therapy for years and I ate all organic and I worked in social work and tried to meet good people in healthy social circles and I volunteered on an organic farm and I didn't drink or smoke or do any drugs, I read about interpersonal relationships, I DID EVERYTHING YOU CAN DO.

Why is it so hard for you to believe that these things can happen even when people are doing things right? Why are you so smug that think you avoid sexual assault because you're so much better than me and eanything I've ever been through is my fault because you're better than me.

Oh, YOU'RE not like those pathetic people who get hurt, you're better than that.

I feel like you're trying to get something out of this and perhaps you need a hightened personal axis of control to deal with your own abuse.

Consider that your high horse might involve more luck than you would like to admit.

Have you dealt with trauma induced epilepsy? Do you know what it means when s guy stands next to you in a predatory manner and REALITY STOPS FUNCTIONING NORMALLY and visually the world looks like everything is floating and electricity is going up and down your spine and you can feel the blood moving back and forth in your head and everything looks like a tunnel with this person in front of you and you CAN'T MOVE, like physically you fight it with all you have but you can't move?

Have you had to deal with that on a regular basis in your adult life? Have you had to be hospitalized for that? Have you lost all of your friends because they are SCARED of what you're going through?

Have you not been able to get through school because you stare off in space and you can't get back? Have you not been able to work a cash register because you're dyslexic with numbers? Have you worked as a dishwasher into your twenties because you have very few options with the amount of dysfunction that you face?

How the fuck do you know that everything I've been through is because I'm so much less of a person than you? How do you know I haven't tried my damndest every fucking step of the way?

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And yes I had arousal in re... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 6:31 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

And yes I had arousal in relation to my CSA. That was part of the point, they break you with your own arousal.

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"So--- for people with past... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 6:39 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"So--- for people with past abuse it really can be that hard. These same guys would never do that kind of thing with other women. No one else would ever know."

Sure they would, or at least try, it's just that women with healthy boundaries wouldn't put up with it for very long so they'd either modify their behavior or find someone who will give them what they want - that's the boundary issue again and being responsible for oneself. Recognizing and taking responsibility for one's own actions (or inactions) and beliefs that contribute to a relationship dynamic or cause and effect (or just one's own passiveness when faced with someone abusive), doesn't absolve the other person for responsibility for their actions or make them any less heinous. I'm sorry you had that experience and I sincerely hope you never have to live through something like that again.

I can understand giving up relationships with others to work on your relationship with yourself in therapy. Trust has to do with protection and if we weren't protected when we were young then obviously we're going to have issues with trust in relationships. I think we all grapple with trust issues, or most of us do at least, at some point in our lives. This book might interest you (and it's a good read too).

http://www.amazon.com/General-Theory-Thomas-Lannon-Richard/dp/0375709223

And my apologies for the anonymous confusion.

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"Sure they would, or at lea... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 6:47 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"Sure they would, or at least try, it's just that women with healthy boundaries wouldn't put up with it for very long so they'd either modify their behavior"

I don't want to be with someone who is "not harming me" because they don't think they can get away with it with me, but they would do that to me if they could get away with it.

I don't want to be with anyone who could fuck someone while they're curled up in a ball crying. If that's what people do to you "unless you control them with your boundaries" I don't want to be with them.

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I lost my virginity being r... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 6:56 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I lost my virginity being raped at 13 so I've got my own experience of rape. My sister was raped in our house when she was a teenager. I'm not saying you should have the same perspective as me, you and your experience are unique. You need to do what you need to do, I can't tell you what that is. I can only share my experience, and that is that there are people worth trusting in the world but we learn that by taking the time to get to know people by their actions and how they align with their words. And if people just suck too much, other animals can be pretty great to hang out with.

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I totally respect you doing... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 7:36 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I totally respect you doing what works for you and believing in people. The whole point I was really trying to make was that I have concerns about how being in porn affects women; and I wonder how it affects porn watchers to watch it and not care how it affects her--- I wonder what it means when we watch porn and we don't care why they are there, or if being on the tv screen doing those things has an affect on their life.

It seems like the indifference to the high number of SA and CSA surviviors that in the field and not caring that there are a lot of people who have come out of it and felt like it was really destructive--- it seems like that would further alienate us from caring about our fellow human beings.

And I think that would affect our relationships.

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Yes I should be one of thos... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 7:40 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Yes I should be one of those cat ladies one day, it'll be really awesome lol

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Also you said "take respons... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 8:21 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Also you said "take responsability for a freeze response". I'm not sure that you understand the freeze response:

"Past research has shown that 37% to 52% of sexual assault survivors report experiencing a set of peritraumatic responses, which include gross motor inhibition, analgesia, and fixed or unfocused staring. This response set closely resembles a set of unconditioned responses, collectively known as Tonic Immobility (TI). This study examined TI among childhood sexual abuse (CSA) survivors and its relation to PTSD symptomatology. Participants were 131 female college undergraduates who completed questionnaires assessing sexual abuse history, TI, and PTSD symptom severity. Results showed that TI partially mediated the relation between peritraumatic fear and overall PTSD symptom severity and completely mediated the relation between fear and the PTSD reexperiencing symptoms. Although peritraumatic fear is associated with TI, the mediation findings provide evidence for the notion that these responses are separate from one another. These results suggest that TI during CSA may play an important role in the subsequent PTSD symptomatology in adulthood."
http://jiv.sagepub.com/content/25/2/358.abstract

What they are saying is that some portion of women have an involuntary freeze response to an assault. If that were true- if the response is involuntary, there is really nothing to take responsability for. If you said no but someone continued to assault you and your system literally shut down and you phsycially couldn't move--- there wouldn't really be anything to take responsability for.

I don't have an answer--- however I don't think you should assume victim responsibility is so easy to determine. I suspect the answer is much more complicated than a simple "you could have fixed that response if you tried hard enough"-- or ---"there is no way you could ever fix that response"

In general people who have experienced sexual assault that resulted in a freeze response have the hardest time recovering and the highest revictimization rate. Both of those should be obvious.

If you're actually interested in reading the existing literature to come to your own conclusion there is a lot out there, though it might not be important to you if it doesn't fit with your experience. If you're going to take a position on it and attack people for having a passive response telling them to "take responsability" I do suggest you have read some of the literature and at least make your position educated.
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=121nQqryvbkC&oi=fnd&pg=PA178&dq=freeze+response+during+rape+PTSD&ots=gFdXXvfwfZ&sig=WnIfAc4zry4mTnlHlk-XZl-S92E#v=onepage&q&f=false

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Also, I am very sorry you h... (Below threshold)

February 23, 2011 8:25 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Also, I am very sorry you had to go through that experience. : (

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Anon, are you Rox? I... (Below threshold)

February 24, 2011 2:27 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Anon, are you Rox?
If so I believe everything you are saying happened to you, but I wonder why you have been so unfortunate to have been sexually attacked so many times by so many different men? I am not blaming you at all, I am genuinely curious how this could happen to someone so many times with so many different people. Is it possible that most girls have this experience and they just don't talk about it? I have no idea, as I have no relationships and avoid them entirely so I have never really dealt with socializing and such things.


"I had one female friend that confessed she used things that had happened to me in her own fantasies. And that they were fantasies of those things happening to me and not to her."

OMG! I could never imagine being freinds with anyone who had the nerve to admit to me that they were getting off on my pain and suffering. I would slap her in the face. I am not denying that sexual abuse can sometimes be sexually provocative, but if this is so, it is only socially appropriate and respectful TO NEVER ADMIT THAT TO THE PERSON! Save it for your priest or therapist, how selfish and uncaring is this monster?


You don't have to answer this.... but judging by the sheer number of people who have been sexually inappropriate to you, or who have heard of these things and then admitted they found it erotic, are you like, extremely ridiculously attractive or something? I mean, I can't imagine this happenign to anyone so many times, and then "friends" saying they want in on the action too.


It's like you live in an alternate universe where everyone who meets you is sexually attracted to you and actively tries to exploit you.

I am just wondering why. I admit my simplistic guess is that you must be very sexually attractive, combined with an open and submissive personality which makes it easy for men and women to become enmeshed in your life where they can exploit you.

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I admit I have a bia... (Below threshold)

February 24, 2011 2:35 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply


I admit I have a bias that leads me to believe girls who become repeat victims of sexual abuse are usually very attractive (naturally small/child like and pretty), with open personalities (a strong need to connect to people, readily accept people into their lives due to weak boundaries), with submissive personalities (have trouble kicking someone in the groin or saying no or screaming and scratching when some disgusting pig tries to dominate you).

I am not that attractive and I have an extremely closed personality, I do not socialize at all and do not talk to people if I can help it, plus I am nearly 30 years old, so the odds of me being sexually assaulted are extremely low at this point in time.

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Lol @ all these comments by... (Below threshold)

February 24, 2011 4:03 AM | Posted by someone: | Reply

Lol @ all these comments by Anonymous. How is anyone to take this seriously? Try coming up with screen names, it's not exactly a massive undertaking.

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I am not blaming people for... (Below threshold)

February 24, 2011 12:01 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

I am not blaming people for having a passive response (in truly dire domestic abuse situations this may actually be a necessary strategy to prevent being killed until you get somewhere protected). Talking about the dynamics of violent relationships isn't blaming either person. The point is to understand the dynamics so one doesn't keep repeating the behavior learned from prior abuse. Rationally, if you want to propose and everyone to accept the idea that the abused person is just trapped in learned behavior then we have to recognize that the same is true for the abuser. (Understanding someone's actions doesn't excuse them or make them unaccountable, in fact taking responsibility for the behavior is the only way to figure out how to change it.) The point is that the only way out of these dynamics is to recognize that they are dynamics and that there are things one can do (like unlearning previous beliefs and behaviors) to defuse or avoid them. The point isn't to control other people, the point is to not let others control you and to get the hell out of the situation. Just like knowing how to physically defend oneself from an attacker on the street isn't to kill the attacker, it's to be able to defend yourself and get away. It's about proper self care and self protection. It's no guarantee you still won't find yourself in a bad situation but it means at least you'll have some tools to deal with it.

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"Talking about the dynamics... (Below threshold)

February 24, 2011 1:47 PM | Posted by n: | Reply

"Talking about the dynamics of violent relationships isn't blaming either person"

Ok so perhaps where the confusion may be is the difference between "abusive relationship" and "sexual assault" SA would be a one time event probably with someone you were getting to know in hopes of having a relationship. Or you were in a relationship and then soemthing happened. Then you left.

So when I say "sexual abuse" I'm not necessarily refering to choosing to stay with that person, I'm talking about enduring a one time event that let's you know who the person is.

So I'm not really talking about the same thing you're talking about. I'm talking about "something abusive happens" and then person who got treated badly moves away. You're talking about "something abusive happens" and the person hangs out to make it a relationship.

I really TRULY don't think you're very educated about the ways that predatory people can pick up people with previous TI experiences or the ways that people with obvious trauma and vulnerability might INDUCE predatory feelings in people who don't behave that way with others.

Define what the learned behavior of "abused people" is?

You're talking about the freeze response? Did you really do any reading? The freeze response is often associated with dissociation during traumatic experience and there are specific brain regions that seem to be associated with this dissociation (it's also associated with siezure activity.)

If a person is physically dissociated from reality that can be something that is beyond their control. You sound like you just making up how you want it to be, or how it seems to you: which is TOTALLY fine to share and bring to the conversation--- but I mean, to clarify, you are just making up what it seems like to you right? As in, have you researched people with traumatic abuse, tonic immobility, siezure disorders etc?

Like, is there any reason that I, someone who lived this and have spent years reading every study I can find on the subject should be deviating to what you seem to be pulling out of your ass about it? Because if you feel that you have put a great deal of research into this, than ok.

Examples of your research materials that have helped you come to conclusion that freeze response is a voluntary behavior?

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I'm not actually sure what ... (Below threshold)

February 24, 2011 3:12 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I'm not actually sure what your point is. You're directing this pep talk at the world? In case there are people who feel stuck in abusive relationships? Because I'm not in one, nor have I been in one since I was 17 years old (11 years?) At 16 I'm pretty square on what lead to that happening.

So who are you lecturing? And do you REALLY have any knowledge base to do such lecturing, or is this really just venting time "Oh I'm so sick of these stupid abused people."


Ok I hear you. You don't like these annoying abused people (are there any such people in this thread?). I hope it feels good to get that off your chest. Is this possibly more related to anger issues you have toward yourself in relation to your own SA? I'm just not getting the continual lecturing that doesn't seem to be applicable to my situation. You're pissed at people who do X (they STAY damn them! They must love the abuse) and you want them to realize that they love being abused...

sounds good, let's employ this technique in therapy.

"Hey little submissive cunt, yeah you know you wanted it, that's alright go ahead and cry fucking pathetic slut. You know it's what you wanted"

Oh wait---- sounds like a porn.


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I don't know why this other... (Below threshold)

February 25, 2011 1:29 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I don't know why this other anon is lecturing about how one should or should not handle multiple sexual assaults. Unless they have some kind of personal experience with multiple sexual assault by multiple people they have no idea what it is like, what causes it, why it happens, how to deal with it, what to do from there, etc. It is pretty callous and obnoxious that anyone would even pretend to understand what this is like, unless they personally understand what it is like.

I am curious how this happens. I understand it happening once, even twice, but some people seem to be sexually assaulted multiple times by multiple people and I wonder what it is that makes them targets. I would never offer any advice other than the practical kind (it's not your fault, you're not guilty, etc) because I have zero idea how to cope with that sort of thing.

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I was the anon who earlier ... (Below threshold)

February 25, 2011 1:48 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I was the anon who earlier said that I believe youth and attractiveness are major risk factors for sexual assault. Rape and sexual assault are absolutely sexually motivated crimes - the perpetrators are very self centered, sociopathic, monstrous individuals who want to get off sexually. I believe the idea that it is about control is a myth. It may be about control, but only in as much that many men (and women, too) find control inequalities sexually arousing.

I believe that many girls in colleges and highschools are put at risk for rape and sexual assault because of this feminist myth that rape and sexual assault are not about sex. These are crimes of sexual indulgence, most of the time when the men commit these crimes they are just horny pieces of shit who lack empathy and are extremely cruel. They see a young attractive female, and so they do what they can to get sex from her. Elderly women and obese people are really not the ones being targeted for rape (although many do develop obesity after sexual assault, out of a desire to be hidden). It's young, attractive girls who are almost always the targets (and young males are targeted by homosexual men sometimes, or in very rare circumstances where there are no females as in prison).

It wasn't until I was an adult that I realized a lot of social ideas are bullshit. This idea - youth and beauty have nothing to do with who becomes a victim of sexual assault - puts a whole lot of girls at risk, because they are given a false sense of equality / confidence that they will not be targeted.
When you are a pretty 15 or 16 year old girl you don't realize how young you are, and what guys are thinking when they look at you. You may have an idea that he likes you, but you can't possible know the nature of men and sex, and that many men will think nothing of pressuring or outright violating you for the simple reason of sexual gratification. You are a body to these men. You do not realize, at that age, as young as you are with the perspective of a 16 year old girl, that men in general are animals, sexual perverts, not much better than elephant seals, and many of them will pressure you or outright violate you for sexual gratification.

If this feminist bullshit myth were stopped (that rape is a way of controlling people, that all females and some males are at risk for it), and if rape and sexual assault were properly framed as crimes of sexual indulgence - like a sociopath car jacking, holding up a liquor store, or stealing a purse from an old lady - more girls would realize how TERRIBLE of an idea it is to be alone with a man, to "trust" an older man who shows an unreasonable amount of interest in you, to go with him to places alone, to drink excessively with men alone...

But so many girls do these stupid things, because they have no idea how vulnerable they are (that they are the prime targets for male sexual attraction - teenaged/early 20s girls), and the nature of male animals. All male animals in nature fight for sex, kill for sex, and think nothing of taking sex. Humans are animals, the only thing which prevents us from not being animals is a pair of pants and the police.

When society breaks down, the first thing that happens is all the men start fighting / killing each other and raping fertile women. See: egypt right now. The point of war is to take land and rape women. Land is important because it gives you a place to live and spread your genes. Women and sex are important because they are a vehicle for gene spread. We are biological machines which spread genes. The behavior of males is informed by genes. Men invented war for this purpose.


Everyone KNOWS people steal cars because they want cars. So people who own nice cars buy a car alarm, a lo-jack, and don't park in shitty neighborhoods.

Everyone KNOWS people steal cash, because they want cold hard cash. So people with cash hide it in their boots, or their wallets, or put it in a bank, and don't let people know when they are carrying 400 dollars in bills.

But, because of ugly old feminists, many young girls do not know that men steal sex because they want sex. Girls are trained to believe that men rape women because they are evil, because they want to oppress women, because it is a crime of control of women.
So, young girls, possessing a high commodity - youth, beauty, femininity - do not guard these things, and go off with guys in rooms alone, are trained to "trust" men because they are equals and good men will not steal sex from you, drink and take drugs around men so they are limited in their ability to defend themselves, and do many other stupid stupid stupid behaviors that they otherwise would not do if they knew the value of what they had.

If a girl has a brand new car she damn well knows that car has value and people will steal it if they can. But girls are not trained to know that men view her youth and beauty much like a car, and many men will just take it and indulge in it, and not at all care about your pain or suffering wishes or wants.


This is all very upsetting because it is clear the most effective way to prevent female sexual assault, is to teach women that rape is about sex and men will steal sex just like people will steal cash.

It is impossible for this truth to be known because feminist myths (and men as well) have perpetrated this idea that rape is not about sex, that sexual attraction has nothing to do with it or very little to do with it, and so girls do not realize the sort of danger they put themselves in when they go off with men alone in rooms and drink too much. They wouldn't be that reckless by flashing around $500 bills in a bad neighborhood, but they do this with their own lives because they just do not know better.

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I am amazed, every time I s... (Below threshold)

February 25, 2011 1:57 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I am amazed, every time I see young girls who trust older men who are nice to them. These young girls really think these guys are their friends, find them interesting people or something.

My sister told me the other day that her boss likes her because she is really smart. HA! This is a woman in her mid 20s who is so silly that she actually believes a man likes her because she is intelligent. That the reason he looks at her and talks to her and shows interest in her, is because her grades in school were so great. What a fool.

I do not understand why so many girls in their late teens and early 20s facilitate these kinds of predatory relationships, where an older married man tries to buddy up to you and form a relationship (platonic, of course!) with you. As a best case outcome, you will end up being seduced, being a mistress, wasting a bit of your life with an older married man. As a worst case outcome, he may be grooming you for sexual predatory behavior.

So, given there are no good outcomes in this situation (what, do you think he will leave his wife and family, for you? HAHA!) I just don't understand why so many women seem to indulge this.

Or, did you REALLY believe he's your "friend"?

I hate men, but I think I hate women even more. Why should women have equal rights when all evidence suggests so many of them are so very stupid and naive and should be regarded as children with no common sense?

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1) Teach young girls that r... (Below threshold)

February 25, 2011 2:44 AM | Posted by How to prevent rape.: | Reply

1) Teach young girls that rape is about sex, and they are prime targets. Men like casual sex with young girls. Men are often aggressive and violent. Men commit almost all sex crimes, and almost all victims are young /attractive females.
If you are a young attractive female you are at a higher risk for sexual assault, unwanted sexual contact, and/or rape.


2) Teach young girls never to trust men ever. Do not go anywhere alone with men. Do not believe men when they want to be your friend or tell you that you're a special flower. 9 times out of 10 they are just grooming you for sex, whether you want it or now.


http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Sexual_Assault_of_Women__Prevention_Efforts_and_Risk_Factors.pdf

"Not surprisingly, private places appear to be less safe compared
with more public places. Miller and Marshall (1987) found
that 75% of reported assaults occurred in private living quarters
(home, apartment, fraternity house, or residence hall) and
another 15% in parked cars."

Lesson: do not go anywhere alone with men. Restrict how often you "trust" men and go off in rooms with them. Use your common god given sense. When a 35 year old man is staring at you and smiling and talking to you and shows so much interest in you, a 16 year old girl, it's not because he wants to be your friend. He wants sex. He finds you sexually attractive. He is fantasizing about you. He may or may not pressure or force you to give it to him when you are in a room alone with him.

3) "Alcohol use has been the most researched risk factor for sexual
assault, and education about alcohol consumption may be the
most important safety measure a woman can take. Although the
studies vary in their design, they all show that alcohol is a significant
risk factor. The majority of studies have relied on a retrospective
design, involving women with reported past assaults, to
assess both general alcohol intake and intake specifically at the
time of the sexual assault. Researchers have found that women
who in general consumed alcohol once or more per week were
significantly more likely to be sexually assaulted (Canterbury,
Grossman, & Lloyd, 1993; Koss & Dinero, 1989)."

Lesson: Don't go out partying and drinking a lot. Men want sex, as previously stated, men are stronger than you. If you are a foolish girl who drinks a lot, not only are you putting in yourself in a situation where you are easily raped (dark / secluded rooms in houses, clubs, cars) but you are altering your mental status and physical ability so that men are much, much more likely to force themselves on you successfully.

4) "There was, however,
some indication that previously assaulted women had difficulties
detecting danger.A. E.Wilson, Calhoun, and Bernat (1999) investigated
the possibility that previously sexually assaulted women
would take longer to perceive a certain heterosexual situation as
dangerous compared to women without such a history. In this
study, women listened to a tape recording of an intimate interaction
between a male actor and a female actor and were asked to
indicate when they perceived the woman to be in danger of a
sexual assault. Consistent with expectations, women with a
history of prior multiple sexual victimizations showed poorer
danger recognition ability than did either single-incident women
or women with no prior history. Interestingly, among the prior
victimization group, those with active post-traumatic stress disorder
arousal symptoms were better able to detect danger, whereas
those with no arousal symptoms took significantly longer to
detect a high-risk situation."


Lesson: be confident, trust your instinct. That little voice which says "this guy is a pervert" is probably right. Unless we are autistic, we can all *suspect* when someone is thinking something. When you suspect a man is thinking about sex, and when you have no interest in that, have the confidence enough to get away from him. Women are shamed by society for rightfully identifying males as often hypersexual and predatory; women are conditioned to be too trusting and naive of the intentions of men. Fuck that. Society doesn't have to deal with being raped, you do. Might I also add that society is shaped by the wishes and wants of men, always has been, and will be.

In a way, muslim cultures sorta have things right. While certainly brutal and oppressive toward women, at least these men are honest - they cover their women in burqas because they know competing men will steal them.


And now, my posting marathon is done. I have not slept enough and have had too many stimulants.

G'bye~!

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""In another survey of 114 ... (Below threshold)

February 27, 2011 12:08 PM | Posted by n: | Reply

""In another survey of 114 undergraduate men , these replies emerged.
"I like to dominate a woman" 91.3%
"I enjoy the conquest part of sex" 86.1%
"some women look like they are just asking to be raped"83.5%
"I get excited when a woman struggles over sex"63.5%
"It would be exciting for me to use force to subdue a woman"61.7%"

http://worid-of-books.com/?id=D0naAAAAMAAJ

Another quote you might have seen floating around the internets and attributed to Margo Paine in the book "Body Wars" is this but it's driving me crazy because I can't find the actual survey on line any where-- supposedly it comes from the same one.
"Thirty percent say they would rape if they could get away with it. When the wording was changed to “force a woman to have sex,” the number jumped to 58%"


The fact that domination themes are prevailent in our thinking about consensual sex, I think has great relevence in the dynamic of coercive sex and the fact that there IS a grey area between psychological coercion and persuasive psychological force and physical force.

If asked if it would be exciting to force a woman to have sex the percent goes up dramtically in most surveys, wheras the word "rape" thrown in lowers the percent dramatically.

It's not so much that I worry that domination, coercion, force, submission, and exploitation are themes in porn. I'm worried that we watch that, get off on it, and don't challenge how it might affect our personal relationships, or are how it might enhance our desires for these types of interactions. And of course that young people ARE learning more about sex from these kinds of films that from adults who give better guidance about how to interperet all of this, make sense of it, and give guidance about how to create compassionate self aware, and partner aware relationships in the context of all this confusing stuff.

Some of the problem does go back to a lack of education about what sexual relationships involve for men and women. But I do wonder if in America, the fascination with domination might not be higher than in some other countries (and lower than in some countries) and I wonder how the media and porn affects this interconnected relationship. Also, aggressive dominant rats can be easily created through maternal seperation and social isolation. Depressed and more submissive female rats can also be created although usual they do this by altering neurochemisry biologically.

I really do wonder-- is this innate, no matter what a high percentage of homosapiens will always love expoitation? Or are there societal problems that are enhancing an innate part of sexuality that wouldn't otherwise be so prevailent?

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And I have to add, I care d... (Below threshold)

February 27, 2011 12:18 PM | Posted by n: | Reply

And I have to add, I care deeply about the men involved in this as well. If the numbers are really so high, then this is something men should not be shamed for. I think something is up, whether it be this is an innate part of being human and we need to give guidance on how to be responsible with that-- or social and environmental factors are enhancing these feelings in men and women. I think we would prevent more exploitation, and assault by compassionately looking at what goes into this happening than by demonizing men who have the desire for domination in sexual fantasies. The number of women with submission fantasies is equally ridiculously high. I'm not saying it isn't fair to have hatred for someone who does something particularly heinous, somewhere along the way we do have to hope that people will choose to see the human being in front of them and refrain from doing something particularly horrible to them. (And have laws and social repercussions against people who cross that line)

But if we live in a culture where we celebrate doing horrible things to women "so long as she has submitted" even if it's due to coercion, horrible life issues, sexual abuse as a child, boundary issues, desperation for approval---- I think that distances us from having compassion for how humans are affected by our actions. I do think it may add to the prevailence of sexual assualt.

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The problem with feminist b... (Below threshold)

February 27, 2011 4:23 PM | Posted, in reply to n's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

The problem with feminist bullshit research into the cause/prevention of rape, is that these old hags are assuming one can use psychology programs to change perverted antisocial male sexuality.
It's not going to happen. This tendency of men to be violent, to get off on control inequalities in sex, it is as innate as sexuality and orientation. For some reason no one can say the truth - rape is about sex, and sexuality is innate and we do not learn it. A lot of men (and women) find control inequalities sexually arousing.
I'm not sure why we can't say this, why we have to be PC and pretend it's about control and dominating women and oppressing women, and that young girls are not the ones being targeted. All this is doing is helping crop after crop of highschool girls and undergrads get raped at frat parties. Very very few human beings outside of this group (13-24 year old girls) are getting raped. Do you know why? Because 13-24 year old girls are the prime objects of male sexual desire.
The only way to help young attractive girls avoiding becoming the victims of rape is to teach them that rape is about sex, and if you do stupid shit like drink heavily around men, or go off to secluded areas alone with men, even men who seem "really nice", you are putting yourself at risk to be raped. It is no different than driving to the ghetto in a nice car, and leaving the door open while you go into a store.
Seriously. If we had programs in school which taught girls this - rape is about sex, you are at an age where men will try to rape you a lot , therefore, don't ever trust men and go off with them alone or drink a lot because these are well established risk factors for getting raped - I am sure we would see a rate in rape reduction.

I mean, if you run a highschool program of sex ed where you tell kids "Just don't fucking have sex" that's not going to be as efficient or successful as a sex ed program where you tell kids "Look, we know that you're probably going to have sex, some of you anyway, so here's some condoms, use these". The first message denies human nature - teenagers are sexually mature and will start having sex whether you tell them to or not.
However, if you educate young girls that their behavior can increase or decrease the likelihood they will be targeted for rape (don't drink don't be a ho, don't go off with guys alone who you barely know and even those who you know well).
""I really do wonder-- is this innate, no matter what a high percentage of homosapiens will always love expoitation? Or are there societal problems that are enhancing an innate part of sexuality that wouldn't otherwise be so prevailent?""
Actually I assume society is minimizing the number of men who rape women. Men know if they force or rape a woman to have sex, this is highly stigmatizing and criminal. In places where society breaks down, the first thing that happens is the men fight and kill each other to rape women. If anything, the consequences placed on rape and the negative stigma of it is a deterrent to the hypersexed and violent nature of young males.

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Speaking of causation and n... (Below threshold)

March 6, 2011 1:30 PM | Posted by irony: | Reply

Speaking of causation and narcissism...

Men are losing interest in women because women have turned into these greedy, self-centered bitches.

Does anyone in their right mind think porn is better than sex with a woman? It's a tolerable alternative with the upside of not having to deal with the chick after wards. And it's cheaper/safer than hookers.

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Porn is not a very good thi... (Below threshold)

March 8, 2011 3:51 PM | Posted by Texas Assisted Living: | Reply

Porn is not a very good thing.

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I can't even put into words... (Below threshold)

March 10, 2011 3:44 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by anoynmousperson: | Reply

I can't even put into words how much I appreciate this comment and how hard I laughed.

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While I agree that for most... (Below threshold)

March 17, 2011 9:18 PM | Posted by rasha: | Reply

While I agree that for most men over 30 porn is a routine, not unlike junkfood, can't it be said that routine in and of itself is a form of addiction? It disturbs a person not to follow through when prompted mentally. I also think that there can be exceptions. Sex addiction can be a real affliction. however, you are right that men blame porn for not getting an orgasm. I dated a sex addict once, and believe me, he had noooo problems (i am pretty good in bed though :p). So it's circumstantial. But in the cases you're describing, i agree with your opinon.

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Or men could JUST NOT RAPE ... (Below threshold)

March 31, 2011 4:51 PM | Posted by Anon: | Reply

Or men could JUST NOT RAPE ANYONE.

You people are disgusting.

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Whoh that is asking a bit m... (Below threshold)

March 31, 2011 5:07 PM | Posted, in reply to Anon's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Whoh that is asking a bit much. Rape less frequently? Rape in moderation? Maybe we can discuss that, but please be reasonable.

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Why fuck a four in real lif... (Below threshold)

April 22, 2011 5:07 PM | Posted by Workshy Joe: | Reply

Why fuck a four in real life when you can fap to a ten?

Its called the Elephant In The Room folks.

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When I was a teenager, the ... (Below threshold)

April 24, 2011 6:11 AM | Posted by ATB: | Reply

When I was a teenager, the huge "problem" for girls was that, because of the sexual revolution (the battle cry was "free love" at the time, sex no longer confined to a marital relationship) you were under constant pressure and worry with each date that the guy was going to expect sex. You couldn't just go to a movie or eat a hamburger, chat and get to know each other and go home. We had to make up nice excuses that wouldn't hurt the guy's feelings or make him feel rejected, like "it's that time of the month, for me," because to say flat-out I don't want sex with you or any guy I barely know, would brand you as a prude. Quelle horreur. Well, in a way, of course, this worked out fine for most of us girls, because you did not have repeat dates with guys who were not interested in you as a human being.

The kind of men I associated with, considered this "challenge" to be an enhancement of their own sex lives. That is what being human is all about, being able to seduce a woman with your charm, manners and intellect into wanting to have sex with you. An earlier post giving statistics about men's conquest fantasies bears this out. The current social model that it is expected of a girl to have sex with a guy soon after they meet, at least on the third date, certainly deprives men of that conquest fantasy. Isn't that why porn has to push boundaries all the time?

What is debated on this forum is not whether or not a girl should have sex with her date, but whether she will allow anal sex or let a man ejaculate into her face. Oh, there she does have a choice. How nice. But since it is her choice and not a "conquest" on the part of the male, the boundaries have to be shifted into ever more unacceptable practices, which the man must "convince" the girl to allow (i.e. the conquest). There is no "achievement" in getting what every other guy could get with consent.

Oh, and the most valuable advice I had when dating was to observe how your date treats/ speak to the powerless: the waiter, car guard, etc. I've noted a lot of pro-porn posts have the philosophy that weak people (unassertive, poor boundaries) deserve what they get. Those are the rapists. No decent man (and there are many!) will get satisfaction from exploiting someone's weakness.

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I totally agree with you AT... (Below threshold)

May 5, 2011 3:45 AM | Posted by susan: | Reply

I totally agree with you ATB. Good guys abound but I sometimes wonder if before the modern era with its faux-feminism and ultrafrenzy of media there were more of them.

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Really great, that was so h... (Below threshold)

May 6, 2011 1:36 PM | Posted by anket doldur para kazan: | Reply

Really great, that was so hot.

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Thanks for commenting Anony... (Below threshold)

June 4, 2011 1:00 PM | Posted by meg: | Reply

Thanks for commenting Anonymous, no really, you have opened my eyes. I'm 19 and I don't trust men and I never have. Guys my age are absolute pieces of shit and porn increasingly makes them think they are entitled to naive girls' bodies. I used to dress cute and parade my body, I have a good one and I was taught to be proud of it, but the attention I get from creepy old men to little boys is not worth the hassle of showing it off. And I never dressed slutty, but now I have to go out of my way to cover it, wearing big t-shirts and long shorts/jeans. Doing this is annoying, but I feel less like a sexual object and more like a human being, a worthy trade-off. I have realized the more I experience the world the more things stay the same. I swear the "good guys" must be freaking unicorns because they don't exist.

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There are as many good men ... (Below threshold)

June 5, 2011 2:37 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

There are as many good men out there as there are good women, I'm sure. However, I think we've been conditioned by an overwhelming media (constant TV and radio and movies - there's no escape) to be blind to the good guys.

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meg, trust me there are goo... (Below threshold)

June 25, 2011 9:57 PM | Posted, in reply to meg's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

meg, trust me there are good guys out there. (In general, people suck.) Look for people with maturity and character. Ignore the others. Men have a different response than women do to sexuality/bodies, this doesn't mean they're all animals, not even most of them. :)Life advice from an old lady.

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On the contrary, this is on... (Below threshold)

September 16, 2011 9:40 PM | Posted, in reply to JJ's comment, by WhyAreYouHere: | Reply

On the contrary, this is one of the single best pieces of writing I've seen for some time. If you can't see the raw intelligence dripping from this essay, you need to work on your critical thinking skills.

This essay has clarified the entire issue, in my mind. Specifically, I've had some of the same thoughts but I never tied them all together this powerfully.

You ought to re-read this article a few times until you can understand it. You've missed the point. Unfortunately, this isn't a simple black and white issues like most people think "huh..duh...it's either good or bad and nothing else". That kind of logic is ridiculous.

To the author:
BTW, nice play of words on pathetic/apathetic. That's pure genius. Bravo for reaching this level of understanding in your field. I commend you for that. And thanks for helping me understand psychology a little better. I don't mean to gush, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't enamored with your writing.

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I guess you're referring to... (Below threshold)

September 17, 2011 2:22 AM | Posted, in reply to WhyAreYouHere's comment, by Tony: | Reply

I guess you're referring to the original meaning of pathetic-- feeling great loss and being moved by profound sadness. Yes, apathetic-- cavalierly not giving a damn-- is pretty much the opposite of that meaning.

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Changing your behavior by c... (Below threshold)

December 18, 2011 3:49 PM | Posted by carol: | Reply

Changing your behavior by changing your conception of yourself is something that you could apply to an infinite number of behaviors. If you want to say, motivate yourself to recycle, you could envision yourself as a steward of the environment. Makes more sense than castigating yourself for sloth.

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I'm guessing whoever "Anony... (Below threshold)

January 12, 2012 12:27 AM | Posted by A Chick: | Reply

I'm guessing whoever "Anonymous" was who replied to Leanne's post is a guy. My guy tried to get me into anal. It hurt like hell each time. We tried lube and it actually felt worse. I'm willing to try a few more times because he swears that his one past girlfriend loved it, but I'm starting to wonder if his past girlfriend was just trying to please him or if he's so into porn that he can't see that nothing he does is sexually satisfying.

Actually, the other day, he kept insisting that the women in porn enjoy the sex being portrayed. When I tried to explain to him that a lot of porn is geared toward a male audience and the women are supposed to look like their enjoying it, he wouldn't hear any of it and just said that these women like hard anal sex, end of story. Yeah, 'cause I'm a woman and I don't know what it feels like receiving it... hmmm...

Not saying no woman enjoys it, but most men who watch porn do not consider factors like lube or actually getting the woman to relax her muscles, etc... and seriously, wtf is with guys who act like they know how to eat pussy? I won't even let my boyfriend down there because he does NOT know how to do it. Wayyy too rough and way too fast. Sorry I don't whack off to porn every day like you in two seconds flat, but I actually would prefer it if you took it slow and got me to an orgasm just this ONCE, even if it took a freaking hour.

*sighs* I should dump him. I need a man who can satisfy me. Why am I settling? I deserve better, and so do all the other women who feel the same way. The man needs to spend less time watching some random chick who thinks he's a creep online just to get off for two seconds and spend more time learning how to please his woman who should really just leave his ass.

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you're boring... (Below threshold)

January 12, 2012 1:50 AM | Posted, in reply to leanne's comment, by aliz: | Reply

you're boring

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aliz; How does it ... (Below threshold)

January 12, 2012 8:48 AM | Posted, in reply to A Chick's comment, by Perry : | Reply

aliz;

How does it make you feel to think that the guy you are sharing intimacy with is apparently content to inflict pain onto you as part of his pleasure?

"I need a man who can satisfy me."
You didn't mention anything in your review about the relationship being otherwise worth saving, in fact all you wrote about was, you know, bottom fishing. If all you want is a sex partner who respects your boundaries and enjoys pleasing you, that shouldn't be too hard to find.

I thought your generation had everything worked out in the "friends with benefits" model.

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My partner and I have an am... (Below threshold)

January 13, 2012 5:25 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

My partner and I have an amazing sex life. We went through a period of health problems (yeast infections, UTI's, swollen parts from too rough sex - multiple times). We both resorted to porn for a few months with the odd sexual encounter between the two of us to try and clear up any bacteria. Attempting to go back to our regular sex life is killing both of us. I see him sneaking off the the bathroom with his iPad more frequently than he slides his hands down my pants.

Now this isn't meant to be a sob story so much as proof that young, good-looking people (women included) with an insane attraction for eachother can get mentally lost in porn just the same as awkward, shy, overweight 35-year-olds. After months of watching orgies, girl-on-girl, anal and whatnot, it's hard to go back to meaningful and deep connected missionary - nevertheless the crazy, freaky sex we used to have as well. It isn't novel the way porn is. Porn isn't the problem, it's our attachment to something we know isn't real.

I don't think cutting it out altogether is the answer - but you said it perfectly: we have got to choose to not be those kind of people.

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We consume porn as a couple... (Below threshold)

January 13, 2012 7:23 PM | Posted by Wolfgang Jonathan von Werther Pfaffenhousen: | Reply

We consume porn as a couple for variety. Most of our sex is in a light D/s style and my watching porn turns her on in that way.

That said, I'm developing a "live cam girl" habit that I need to shake off. It's financially stupid, and statistically indistinguishable to staring at pictures or just masturbating to memories of particularly good sex. I didn't have that problem when this post came up, so I have to thank the previous commenter for reviving this post in the sidebar and the author for the wake-up call.

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'. I'm willing to try a few... (Below threshold)

January 16, 2012 12:41 PM | Posted, in reply to A Chick's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

'. I'm willing to try a few more times because he swears that his one past girlfriend loved it '

This argument is a trap :( It's the same argument an ex boyfriend used to get me to try oral sex on him which I didn't want to do, and haven't done again for any of my the other guys I slept with. Yes, when guys say stuff like that, you start thinking, 'hey, maybe something is wrong with me and I don't like this stuff that everyone else likes, so I should probably ingnore my feelings in the matter and do it anyway ' This is bs. Your feelings come first.
But it's hard to stick to your feelings when you get messages from guys, women and porn that that's what good sex is about. And maybe it is for some people..

The message that porn gives to me is something like that: 'what man will date you? no anal? not even oral? not even cumming on your body? You're boring' However, I am sticking to what I like, the same way I would not want a man to do something they don't like for me. I just feel like less desirable for doing so, but I can live with it because I want to like myself first and foremost.

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Yeah, and then all she has ... (Below threshold)

January 16, 2012 1:17 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Perry : | Reply

Yeah, and then all she has to do is jiggle all that within the overall context of her life, and then in the afternoon, watch Oprah reruns. I hope her other pursuits are happier.

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Finally, someone actually g... (Below threshold)

January 16, 2012 1:47 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Finally, someone actually gets it. Porn and masturbation is always about the guy. there is a REASON he comes to prefer it. The writer could have delved even deeper into these reasons- depression, intimacy anxiety, sexual dysfunction, adult attachment disorders etc etc. Some men just prefer porn and masturbation because it is less stressful than partner sex. No need to please (and perhaps fail) no need to worry about whether or not you can finish or keep the erection long enough to finish.

Many of these guys, unlike the one in the first example, do just fine with a one night stand or the first few times they have sex in a new relationship. The thrill of a new partner overrides his underlying anxiety and low self esteem. But have a relationship start getting serious and he becomes so uneasy that he gets to the point where he can't function sexually at all with a real live partner and so he turns to porn and his own hand.

The bottom line that it seems everyone except the author above seems not to get the fact that even if there was no porn these men would still masturbate in lieu of partner sex, maybe not as much as when porn is available, but they would suffer from the same psychological problems that make sex in a committed relationship unpleasant.

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I will believe feminism got... (Below threshold)

January 16, 2012 3:35 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I will believe feminism got us somewhere when men stop repeating the mantra "monogamy is hard for men!"

And it's easy for women?

No wonder you jokers are shit in bed.

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loners... (Below threshold)

January 17, 2012 12:06 PM | Posted by bob: | Reply

loners

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listen, if you want to wast... (Below threshold)

January 17, 2012 12:09 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

listen, if you want to waste your life watching this crap, go ahead.... but just remember do you really want to do this if you do go to pornhub :P

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"When you characterize porn... (Below threshold)

February 2, 2012 2:55 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

"When you characterize porn as an addiction it tells you that it is hard to break free, that it is a struggle, that relapse is inevitable-- all things that have nothing to do with porn. But when you characterize online porn as junk food, the solution is obvious: don't eat it."

Thank you. Your insights never ceases to amaze me. I've been trying for sometimes to quit my video game addiction. I've searched online for many tips on quitting addictions, from the environmental aspects down to the biological ones. However, I've never ever thought about my problem in terms of how I perceive it. What you said makes a great deal of sense, and it explains why I have failed during my previous endeavors.

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This is an excellent articl... (Below threshold)

February 7, 2012 5:26 PM | Posted by Somedude: | Reply

This is an excellent article. I used to masturbate for 2 to 4 hours a day on average (having 3 - 6 orgasms) watching porn. It was really a way of escaping in my case. I would toss responsibilities and everything else aside. This was before I had any real sexual experience. I was so insecure about real sex that I couldn't get it up. It took a little more than a month without masturbating or viewing porn before I could get it up and probably another week before I could orgasm. It was more about what was wrong with my mind than what was wrong with my genitals.

Sad but true...

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That's a well written artic... (Below threshold)

February 14, 2012 9:27 PM | Posted by noisytloins: | Reply

That's a well written article, but when you stated that 'porn isn't an addiction' completely obliterates the validity of your whole article.

Check out 'yourbrainonporn' dot com to see why you're wrong. It's nice to have an opinion, but to be unable to take into account the whole picture to piece together the truth is simply delusional.

I'd even say that you're the one being extremely narcissistic, being so self-identified with your delusions that you try to pass it on to others.

Try be more open. The world is bigger than you think. Your ideas and pseudo-intellectual brain vomits really reflect how narrow minded you are and showcases your inability to think critically without bias.

And that is enough to keep your site on my list of 'shitty sites not to visit' list. Next time, try to do more research. There is a big difference between FACTS and opinions/ideas. When you've got the facts all wrong, and proceed to write in contrary to it to communicate your half-baked theories, it really makes you look like a pretentious jackass.

-First (and last) time reader.

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This topic is handled bette... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2012 12:26 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Ryan: | Reply

This topic is handled better in his latest post; it sounds like your "endeavors" are just masturbation designed to delay an actual change in behavior. Read it.

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If you guys want a reason n... (Below threshold)

February 15, 2012 4:58 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

If you guys want a reason not to porn, you can go here:

http://www.truthdig.com/arts_culture/item/20091011_the_victims_of_pornography/

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Jesus, why don't you modera... (Below threshold)

March 21, 2012 4:54 PM | Posted by Allison: | Reply

Jesus, why don't you moderate or at least respond to some of the completely asinine comments on this thread? The fact that you let some of these comments stand really hurts your professional credibility.

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Your need for validation is... (Below threshold)

March 21, 2012 6:13 PM | Posted, in reply to Allison's comment, by hmmm: | Reply

Your need for validation is painted in huge white letters over your house. mine just says judge.

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Allison writes, "The fact t... (Below threshold)

March 21, 2012 10:56 PM | Posted, in reply to Allison's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

Allison writes, "The fact that you let some of these comments stand really hurts your professional credibility."

Perhaps responding to the comments hurts his *liability.*?

Anyway, he used to answer people. I don't blame him for not doing it anymore for sure. Read some more of the blog and see, then you might understand. I don't mean the blog of course, I mean the comments.

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Sometimes I wonder if he st... (Below threshold)

March 22, 2012 6:13 AM | Posted by V.V.: | Reply

Sometimes I wonder if he still responds, but under an alias.

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Eric seems to realize that ... (Below threshold)

October 26, 2012 9:22 PM | Posted by Braxlee: | Reply

Eric seems to realize that it would be a mistake to divorce. He came back home yesterday!!! Said he couldn’t live without me. I’m so happy!! I have been waiting on her since February. I can’t say what I feel, my heart is about to explode, I feel as I’m living again. Thank you from the bottom of my heart Dr. Lee contact him via: Ancientfathersandmothers@gmail.com

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I have to stop reading the ... (Below threshold)

December 23, 2012 12:34 PM | Posted by Tim: | Reply

I have to stop reading the comments now, because too many of the ones containing the most sense have been downvoted into oblivion and it's just too depressing. It seems there's an entire army of people out there who think that something they don't personally enjoy *cannot or should not be enjoyed*.

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This article could be writt... (Below threshold)

January 21, 2013 1:26 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

This article could be written from your perspective and your personal experience, but instead you just trash and ridicule others, writing them off as liars. But even worse, you preach to us the all encompassing truth, as it stands for everyone on the planet, including the guys who wrote the article.

I am glad I'll never meet you in person, you're a bigot who speaks for everyone as if YOUR reality is the only truth on the planet. How do you get through life not realizing that people are DIFFERENT?

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MY name is BELLA am from M... (Below threshold)

March 8, 2013 8:39 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

MY name is BELLA am from MEXICO, i never believe that my ex boyfriend will ever make up with me again just because of the incident that happened on a day that suppose to be his engagement night he called me on phone asking me to came and meet him at royal palm bunch hotel,that same hour on my way going there i meant an old time friend called jack will son,he was my first love during our high school days he put some pressure on me that same night but i tried my possible best to explain every thing to him that i am with some one already but he refuse to understand me and still putting more pressure on me saying that i should hangout with him,we were together all through that night,and my boy friend waited for me all through that night.but i never known all in the name of old time sake i was dealing with the wrong person jack i known before later turn into something else after having sex with me,my boy friend was hot and was very agree with me because he was to propose to me that same night but i never known of that i apologize to him and told him a lie that my father was ill that i was the only one available to talk him to the hospital,he was convince but later few days to our wedding some body from no were came and testify against me that i have been cheating on my boy friend with an evidence of a photo of that same incident that happen between i and jack.my boyfriend was very angree with me and throne me out of his house saying is over between both of us,he discovered that his ex girlfriend who traveled to Canada to visit her uncle was back he later go back to her and i held he was planning to marry her,but due to what happened i still loves him very much and i Bella can not afford to loose him to another,i sick for help in difference places but there was no solution,last i meant my friend jenny we both attend this same high school together so i shale my problems with her and she introduce me a powerful DR called alliya,DR alliya help me in getting my love one back immoderately without any delay my ex boyfriend later came back to me with much love and our wedding was planned and we finally got wedded and blessed with three lovely kids,I bella will forever be thankful to DR alliya for helping me restore my marriage back he can also do the same for you or more than because i believe in his powers,you can contact him with this email: dralliyaspellhome@gmail.com

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MY name is BELLA am from M... (Below threshold)

March 8, 2013 8:45 PM | Posted by BELLA: | Reply

MY name is BELLA am from MEXICO, i never believe that my ex boyfriend will ever make up with me again just because of the incident that happened on a day that suppose to be his engagement night he called me on phone asking me to came and meet him at royal palm bunch hotel,that same hour on my way going there i meant an old time friend called jack will son,he was my first love during our high school days he put some pressure on me that same night but i tried my possible best to explain every thing to him that i am with some one already but he refuse to understand me and still putting more pressure on me saying that i should hangout with him,we were together all through that night,and my boy friend waited for me all through that night.but i never known all in the name of old time sake i was dealing with the wrong person jack i known before later turn into something else after having sex with me,my boy friend was hot and was very agree with me because he was to propose to me that same night but i never known of that i apologize to him and told him a lie that my father was ill that i was the only one available to talk him to the hospital,he was convince but later few days to our wedding some body from no were came and testify against me that i have been cheating on my boy friend with an evidence of a photo of that same incident that happen between i and jack.my boyfriend was very angree with me and throne me out of his house saying is over between both of us,he discovered that his ex girlfriend who traveled to Canada to visit her uncle was back he later go back to her and i held he was planning to marry her,but due to what happened i still loves him very much and i Bella can not afford to loose him to another,i sick for help in difference places but there was no solution,last i meant my friend jenny we both attend this same high school together so i shale my problems with her and she introduce me a powerful DR called alliya,DR alliya help me in getting my love one back immoderately without any delay my ex boyfriend later came back to me with much love and our wedding was planned and we finally got wedded and blessed with three lovely kids,I bella will forever be thankful to DR alliya for helping me restore my marriage back he can also do the same for you or more than because i believe in his powers,you can contact him with this email: dralliyaspellhome@gmail.com

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this author has a different... (Below threshold)

March 11, 2013 4:41 PM | Posted, in reply to noisytloins's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

this author has a different opinion than my own, let me write a caustic post and threaten to NOT READ HIM EVER AGAIN.

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thank you so much TLP. ive ... (Below threshold)

March 20, 2013 12:08 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

thank you so much TLP. ive actually never heard it explained this way and with this explanation i've never understood it as much as i do now. it really just did become a junk food routine, jerking cus it was time to jerk. wow! that one flew over my head for a while

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Seriously, I'm thankful for... (Below threshold)

March 29, 2013 5:55 PM | Posted by Anonymouse: | Reply

Seriously, I'm thankful for finding this article because it has changed the way I think about pornography. It's been nearly impossible for me to *not* look at it to the point where I wondered if there was something wrong with my mind. Now that I've come to see it as an issue of boredom and junk food it's an easier problem to solve. If I find myself sitting around doing nothing I get up and go outside. If I'm hungry I eat something healthy, never junk food. Why should this be any different if I'm sitting in front of my computer?

One thing you didn't cover was how porn also sets the bar unrealistically high for men who are a) not well endowed, and b) not fit. I feel like this is one of the things that turned me off to sex in the past. It just doesn't look right if my wife's vagina is not being stretched to capacity by a giant cock. It's ruined blow jobs for me since my wife an easily fit all of me inside her mouth with no visible strain. Bah.

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I suffered severe (non sexu... (Below threshold)

April 28, 2013 10:04 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

I suffered severe (non sexual) childhood abuse being the child of violent alcoholics and have never been able to maintain on on going sexual relationship with anyone. I have a normal sex drive and like sex as much as the next person but if I try to have sex in the confines of an intimate relationship I will start to suffer from severe sexual dysfunctions. As long as I can have sex with a person who I can hold at arms length emotionally then my sexual functioning is fine.

And indeed this is how I operated for 15 years before I finally got married. My wife agreed to marry me despite not being able to function sexually with her because I promised to go to therapy after the wedding. I probably would not have married at all but I was alone in the world and wanted to be part of a family.

But despite years of therapy with a range of therapists none were able to help me out. So my wife and I settled into a sexless marriage than has been going on now for 20 years. I still fantasize about having sex with other women but I don’t act on it because I appreciate the fact my wife has stuck with me despite the lack of sex in the marriage. Porn and masturbation is what I use now and I truly believe that despite my feelings of loyalty to my wife, without porn and masturbation I would have acted on sexual impulse and go looking for paid or one stand stand sex. So in a way porn and masturbation has kept our marriage together.

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Could also be name the effe... (Below threshold)

May 22, 2013 5:53 PM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Could also be name the effects of too much god couldnt it? i think this is where religion is winning nowadays (:

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Ah, yes. I recall an inmate... (Below threshold)

May 23, 2013 12:05 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Laura Looch: | Reply

Ah, yes. I recall an inmate at the jail I worked at who had been anally penetrated so often at the prison which was his prior home (he was at the jail for a retrial) that his insides had a nasty habit of falling out his rectum. Oh, yes, that was special. "Ms. Looch, Ms. Looch, I need to get back to the pod so that I can put my insides back in." some of the infantile posturing on this thread by males really makes me want to go back and read some DH Lawrence. His description of marital seduction and its effect on a man's soul is still beyond compare.

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IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN BE... (Below threshold)

June 29, 2013 1:02 PM | Posted by lee clem: | Reply

IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN BECOMING A PORN STAR OR YOU HAVE ALL IT TAKES TO BE A PORN STAR HERE IS YOUR CHANCE OF BECOMING ONE. EMAIL US AT pornstarlife90@gmail.com or call +2348072063785

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Noisytloins, I would like t... (Below threshold)

July 22, 2013 12:05 PM | Posted, in reply to noisytloins's comment, by missdebra: | Reply

Noisytloins, I would like to share something with you. I believe that your black and white thought pattern in reference to this article is causing you to misunderstand the writer's intents and perceptions. I read your link which talks about the physical addiction to porn. The above article talks about the emotional. Until a person is changed from the inside out, the physical is not going to change. Their behavior is a result of emotional deep seated low self esteem and insecurity. It is also connected to an actual fear of real women, and the power they think we hold over a man's emotions.

Men are so fearful of rejection and having their feelings hurt by a woman. Because of their need of connection with God and real people in loving relationships and their lack thereof, they resort to pornography. It is not all their fault. Growing up in day care, public schools, and all the propaganda keeping men from sharing their real selves with the women and men in their life, especially their often inattentive and insensitive parents, leave them a great deficit in their ability to connect with a real caring woman.

I feel sorry for men stuck in this "addiction". It will never satisfy them and is a lie from satan. God showed me this very thing recently as I thought of men caught in this trap, all the way down to the potato chip illustration. This is why I know the author is right on. Only Jesus can deliver you and help you love yourself because of how much He loves you. He is the steak you need. He can help you connect with real people in your life and leave your draining fantasy world. satan is giving you potato chips.

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^ missdebra,You're... (Below threshold)

July 23, 2013 3:18 PM | Posted by J: | Reply

^ missdebra,

You're insane.

But the observation that physical pleasures are often disconnected from emotional integrity and healthy personality development is correct. Drugs are bad about this. Any dependency really. If a person is uncomfortable without something and that something isn't necessary, then that's bordering on an emotional crutch. Of course, if this America and you buy (heh) the story that material is an extension of the self, then you're not going to escape this by relying on Jesus (ultimate crutch, that sappy metaphysic!) rather than yourself--which actually exists, yes?

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I may be peculiar but I am ... (Below threshold)

July 23, 2013 5:02 PM | Posted, in reply to J's comment, by missdebra: | Reply

I may be peculiar but I am not insane! lol Of course to a non believer, Christians are crazy. I don't blame you for your observation J. however you do see the truth in what I am saying and I am glad for that.

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"Of course to a non believe... (Below threshold)

July 24, 2013 10:51 PM | Posted by J: | Reply

"Of course to a non believer, Christians are crazy."

Behaving in a sane manner isn't so bad. Believing in Christianity? Insane. Do you see the endless circle here?

"Of course to people who aren't like us we're insane."

Says every crazy person ever. You're on a psychiatrist's blog.

There's no harm in acting as though your body is worth protecting--it is--and a lot of irreligious people behave in self-destructive manners. Problem is, so do Christians.

You're all insane but you can be insane so long as you stop influencing elections. Please. No more people who believe in immortality and WMDs.

PS

For some reason I read Spinoza on the toilet. How about that?

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Real women > porn every tim... (Below threshold)

September 25, 2013 10:54 AM | Posted by Anonymous: | Reply

Real women > porn every time. Now if they ever made porn of real women, then we'll talk.

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Welcome to the age of Aquar... (Below threshold)

October 2, 2013 4:46 AM | Posted by TheBigA: | Reply

Welcome to the age of Aquarius, ruled by Uranus. Not referring to the stupid pun. How many of you know what I'm talking about? Probably none.

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I am testifying on... (Below threshold)

December 10, 2013 8:49 PM | Posted by veron: | Reply

I am testifying on how Dr Sango help me to bring back my ex-husband who left me 2 months ago i got his email on the internet on an article how he had help so many people,so i emailed the Dr and tell him my problems to him and after that day he gave me assurance of 2 days,to my greatest surprise my husband came back to me in third day of contacting him,i want to say a very big thank you to sangospelltemple@gmail.com for all his help..

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Therapist Oniha of t... (Below threshold)

March 2, 2014 12:38 PM | Posted by duff: | Reply


Therapist Oniha of the winexbackspell@gmail.com is AMAZING!!! I’ve had readings cast by him to get by beloved wife back together and he’s been accurate and easy to communicate with in every help. He was able to tell me things that no other spiritual worker could – answers that I’ve long waited to hear. I finally feel now after so many years of searching for answers that my life is getting back on track. His work is fast and results are very worthy. I am thankful to him you can keep his contact for more readings in the future.

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I view you as a piece of ga... (Below threshold)

April 13, 2014 7:58 AM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by Anonymous: | Reply

I view you as a piece of garbage.

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as you are, ugmo.... (Below threshold)

April 23, 2014 7:51 PM | Posted, in reply to Anonymous's comment, by smart: | Reply

as you are, ugmo.

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Nice and cool website with ... (Below threshold)

April 26, 2014 8:46 AM | Posted by free webcams: | Reply

Nice and cool website with good features

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You make some good points, ... (Below threshold)

May 10, 2014 3:08 PM | Posted by Erin Bankson: | Reply

You make some good points, but I think watching this video might help you take a stronger stance in your views on porn. YOU ARE the one rationalizing. Maybe this will show you. http://yourbrainonporn.com/cambridge-university-brain-scans-find-porn-addiction The video link is a ways down the page, where it says "you can try to watch it here"

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Stumbled on this today afte... (Below threshold)

October 10, 2014 10:26 AM | Posted by Chuck: | Reply

Stumbled on this today after reading something on the Art of Manliness website. Very glad for the accidental connection. This may be one of the most brilliant articles I've ever read, not only for the information on the effects of porn on people but for the extremely direct, simple statements such as "he doesn't want to change, he just want's it to be changed." Between that and the approach of a treating porn "problem" as a junk food issue I now see several problems around me shrinking from mountain status down to mole hill.

However, the information on porn and the effects is also extremely valuable. I don't know how many people proved your point in the comments section because I got disgusted and skipped to the end after a while, but there were more than enough in the first twenty. We get more arrogant and more defensive every day, and will defend our actions even when we know we are wrong. We rationalize, project, and avoid to get through the day, always pointing the finger away from ourselves and on to everyone and every thing around us. "I'm broken because" or "I deserve because" and never I did this willingly, and now it's time to face and fix it.

Thank you again for an incredibly informative and inspiring article.

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